15-Jan-1999 20:37:25-GMT,1892;000000000001 Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14087; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13140; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:58 -0700 (MST) To: tex-implementors@math.ams.org, tex-archive@math.utah.edu, tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: The typographic point in history Message-ID: I don't expect this posting to generate discussion, but you might be interested in looking at http://www.irisa.fr/faqtypo/truchet/truchet.html (available in French and English) on the history of the origin of the typographic point. It turned up in a current discussion on the Unicode list about ISO standardization of typographic units. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15-Jan-1999 20:38:32-GMT,3229;000000000001 Received: from vms.rhbnc.ac.uk (alpha1.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.201.113]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14189 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:38:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199901152038.NAA14189@csc-sun.math.utah.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:38:28 GMT From: Postmaster@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk Subject: Undeliverable Mail To: Bad address -- Error -- %MAIL-E-SENDERR, error sending to user !AS at !AS -DELIVER-E-MESWRTERR, Message file write error, Pascal status = 50 Start of returned message Received: from math.ams.org by vms.rhbnc.ac.uk with SMTP; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:38:17 GMT Received: from axp14.ams.org by math.ams.org via smtpd (for alpha1.rhbnc.ac.uk [134.219.201.113]) with SMTP; 15 Jan 1999 20:38:16 UT Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J6KPC7403400138P@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for P.Taylor@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:37:45 EST Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F5M00727BYCC7@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14087; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:59 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13140; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:58 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: The typographic point in history To: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-archive@math.utah.edu, tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 I don't expect this posting to generate discussion, but you might be interested in looking at http://www.irisa.fr/faqtypo/truchet/truchet.html (available in French and English) on the history of the origin of the typographic point. It turned up in a current discussion on the Unicode list about ISO standardization of typographic units. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of returned message 20-Jan-1999 21:39:05-GMT,4345;000000000001 Received: from localhost (localhost) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with internal id OAA16959; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:39:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:39:04 -0700 (MST) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <199901202139.OAA16959@csc-sun.math.utah.edu> To: tex-archive-errors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="OAA16959.916868344/csc-sun.math.utah.edu" Subject: Returned mail: Cannot send message within 5 days Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) This is a MIME-encapsulated message --OAA16959.916868344/csc-sun.math.utah.edu The original message was received at Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:59 -0700 (MST) from beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- lcs@pepin.math.u-psud.fr (expanded from: include) prv00423@pophost.nethead.co.uk (expanded from: include) schoepf@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE (expanded from: include) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- lcs@pepin.math.u-psud.fr... Deferred: Connection timed out with pepin.math.u-psud.fr. prv00423@pophost.nethead.co.uk... Deferred: Connection timed out with pophost.nethead.co.uk. schoepf@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE... Deferred: Connection timed out with webserv.zib-berlin.de. Message could not be delivered for 5 days Message will be deleted from queue --OAA16959.916868344/csc-sun.math.utah.edu Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; csc-sun.math.utah.edu Arrival-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:59 -0700 (MST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; beebe@csc-sun.math.utah.edu X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; lcs@pepin.math.u-psud.fr Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: DNS; pepin.math.u-psud.fr Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:32:20 -0700 (MST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; beebe@csc-sun.math.utah.edu X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; prv00423@pophost.nethead.co.uk Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: DNS; pophost.nethead.co.uk Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:35:42 -0700 (MST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; beebe@csc-sun.math.utah.edu X-Actual-Recipient: RFC822; schoepf@webserv.ZIB-Berlin.DE Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: DNS; webserv.zib-berlin.de Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:39:04 -0700 (MST) --OAA16959.916868344/csc-sun.math.utah.edu Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14087; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13140; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:33:58 -0700 (MST) To: tex-implementors@math.ams.org, tex-archive@csc-sun.math.utah.edu, tex-fonts@csc-sun.math.utah.edu Cc: beebe@csc-sun.math.utah.edu X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: The typographic point in history Message-ID: I don't expect this posting to generate discussion, but you might be interested in looking at http://www.irisa.fr/faqtypo/truchet/truchet.html (available in French and English) on the history of the origin of the typographic point. It turned up in a current discussion on the Unicode list about ISO standardization of typographic units. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --OAA16959.916868344/csc-sun.math.utah.edu-- 3-Feb-1999 8:23:48-GMT,2605;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA06199 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:23:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F6K00D4KKLIH0@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J7AJ72JMR4000TQ0@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 03:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from afmp02.mppmu.mpg.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F6K00D4CKKKH0@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 03:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcl163a.mppmu.mpg.de (pcl163a.mppmu.mpg.de [134.107.3.54]) by afmp02.mppmu.mpg.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07844 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:21:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (peb@localhost) by pcl163a.mppmu.mpg.de (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id JAA22897 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:21:54 +0100 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:21:54 +0100 (MET) From: Peter Breitenlohner Subject: Announcing e-TeX Version 2.1 To: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-warning: pcl163a.mppmu.mpg.de: peb owned process doing -bs This is to announce the release of e-TeX Version 2.1 The files are available from ftp://ftpth.mppmu.mpg.de/e-TeX/V2.1/ (see the README file for details). V2.1 fixes a bug in mark(s) handling in V2.0 that occurs for implementations where null=min_halfword is not zero. For implementations with null=min_halfword equal zero there is no urgent need to upgrade the executables from V2.0 to V2.1 In order to avoid having two different versions of the same files, it would, however, be nice if ALL e-TeX implementators could update the run-time support files (in etex_lib.zip/etexlib-2.1.tar.gz). %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Many of you are probably aware that e-TeX V2.0 has been released quite some time ago in March 1998, although due to a mistake this fact was never announced on this list. This ommission is quite contary to the policy of the e-TeX team to encourage as many TeX implementors as possible to support e-TeX. On behalf of the e-TeX team I therefore want to apologize. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Peter Breitenlohner 22-Feb-1999 18:00:34-GMT,2969;000000000001 Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA20005; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:32 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00872; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:30 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" To: tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: I've just finished reading a new paper in the USENIX LISA XII proceedings from December 6-11, 1998, available at http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/ It describes a new software binary distribution packaging system, mkpkg, developed at Hewlett-Packard (but available at the above URL) that builds on the lessons and limitations of previous packages on DEC, HP, Redhat GNU/Linux, SGI, Sun, and Windows 95/98/NT systems, with a view to having greater generality and portability. mkpkg has been used to prepare binary distributions of thousands of UNIX packages, including HP's own substantial commercial offerings, plus many shareware packages, including many GNU utilities (like emacs) and importantly, also TeX. The author suggests that for many (smaller) packages, it requires a personal effort of as little as three minutes to prepare a binary distribution. I draw the attention of the readers of this list to this paper, because it singles out TeX as a system whose packaging poses certain problems that could readily be avoided; see particularly paragraph 2, column 2, p. 251 on the paper. Inasmuch as a development freeze for the new TeXLive-4 CD is just five weeks away, there may be a chance to remove these problems. I don't believe that they are very difficult to resolve. Please note that I am NOT proposing that mkpkg be used for the preparation of the TeXLive-4 CD, only that the paper's points be considered prior to its production. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22-Feb-1999 18:00:34-GMT,2969;000000000001 Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA20005; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:32 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00872; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:30 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" To: tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: I've just finished reading a new paper in the USENIX LISA XII proceedings from December 6-11, 1998, available at http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/ It describes a new software binary distribution packaging system, mkpkg, developed at Hewlett-Packard (but available at the above URL) that builds on the lessons and limitations of previous packages on DEC, HP, Redhat GNU/Linux, SGI, Sun, and Windows 95/98/NT systems, with a view to having greater generality and portability. mkpkg has been used to prepare binary distributions of thousands of UNIX packages, including HP's own substantial commercial offerings, plus many shareware packages, including many GNU utilities (like emacs) and importantly, also TeX. The author suggests that for many (smaller) packages, it requires a personal effort of as little as three minutes to prepare a binary distribution. I draw the attention of the readers of this list to this paper, because it singles out TeX as a system whose packaging poses certain problems that could readily be avoided; see particularly paragraph 2, column 2, p. 251 on the paper. Inasmuch as a development freeze for the new TeXLive-4 CD is just five weeks away, there may be a chance to remove these problems. I don't believe that they are very difficult to resolve. Please note that I am NOT proposing that mkpkg be used for the preparation of the TeXLive-4 CD, only that the paper's points be considered prior to its production. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22-Feb-1999 18:04:26-GMT,4972;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA20176 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:04:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7K007TZI5PQV@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J81N0VVVA8000KNV@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7K007TII55QV@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA20137 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:05 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00953 for tex-implementors@math.ams.org; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA20005; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:32 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00872; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:30 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Resent-date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:03:04 -0700 (MST) Resent-from: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: TeX and software packaging Resent-to: tex-implementors@ams.org To: tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Resent-message-id: <199902221803.LAA00953@plot79.math.utah.edu> Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 I've just finished reading a new paper in the USENIX LISA XII proceedings from December 6-11, 1998, available at http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/ It describes a new software binary distribution packaging system, mkpkg, developed at Hewlett-Packard (but available at the above URL) that builds on the lessons and limitations of previous packages on DEC, HP, Redhat GNU/Linux, SGI, Sun, and Windows 95/98/NT systems, with a view to having greater generality and portability. mkpkg has been used to prepare binary distributions of thousands of UNIX packages, including HP's own substantial commercial offerings, plus many shareware packages, including many GNU utilities (like emacs) and importantly, also TeX. The author suggests that for many (smaller) packages, it requires a personal effort of as little as three minutes to prepare a binary distribution. I draw the attention of the readers of this list to this paper, because it singles out TeX as a system whose packaging poses certain problems that could readily be avoided; see particularly paragraph 2, column 2, p. 251 on the paper. Inasmuch as a development freeze for the new TeXLive-4 CD is just five weeks away, there may be a chance to remove these problems. I don't believe that they are very difficult to resolve. Please note that I am NOT proposing that mkpkg be used for the preparation of the TeXLive-4 CD, only that the paper's points be considered prior to its production. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22-Feb-1999 22:16:25-GMT,2336;000000000001 Received: from june.cs.washington.edu (june.cs.washington.edu [128.95.1.4]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA28714 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:16:24 -0700 (MST) Received: (mackay@localhost) by june.cs.washington.edu (8.8.7+CS/7.2ju) id OAA14604; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:16:23 -0800 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:16:23 -0800 From: mackay@cs.washington.edu (Pierre MacKay) Message-Id: <199902222216.OAA14604@june.cs.washington.edu> To: beebe@math.utah.edu Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Cc: mackay@cs.washington.edu I heartily support the use of a platform and OS independent packaging system, most especially for TeX. I first became aware of SysV packaging when I was asked to prepare a TeX installation for the free software archive sponsored by Sun Microsystems. It took a while to get it right, and I was left with a trivial but annoying error in the request script, (entirely my own fault) but even with that error, I received frequent cheers for the ease of installation. Since then, I have produced only the Ibycus Greek text system, but I naturally use packaging. Even for sites that cannot use pkgadd, the organization of the ./reloc tree is useful as an example. In Unix the ability to provide the package with the tiresome DOS restrictions on the real file system and at the same time generate the links that reflect the original plans of the TDS, is a blessing. Two years ago I suggested that user-generated fonts could be collected at a site and dropped into the regular TDS tree as packages. I still think that beats direct and immediate installation of user generated fonts by a mile. Among other things, it means that if you install a new compilation/distribution of TeX, you can add the packages of user-generated fonts after the distribution. Really good packages are not all that easy. A responsible management of dependencies etc., requires a lot of careful planning, but it really pays off afterward. I am glad to see someone else supporting the use of packaging. My praise of it fell on pretty deaf ears two years ago. Email: mackay@cs.washington.edu Pierre A. MacKay Smail: Department of Classics Emeritus Druid for 218 Denny Hall, Box 353110 Unix-flavored TeX University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 (206) 543-2268 (Message recorder) 24-Feb-1999 12:50:55-GMT,2239;000000000011 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id FAA20089 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 05:50:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id MAA21479; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:41:18 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:50:42 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 From: Sebastian Rahtz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14035.60800.854051.844524@srahtz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:16:00 +0000 (GMT) To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > I draw the attention of the readers of this list to this paper, > because it singles out TeX as a system whose packaging poses certain > problems that could readily be avoided; see particularly paragraph 2, > column 2, p. 251 on the paper. if you mean the advice to build a distribution on a "clean machine", yes, I agree its essential advise > Inasmuch as a development freeze for the new TeXLive-4 CD is just five > weeks away, there may be a chance to remove these problems. I don't > believe that they are very difficult to resolve. I am not sure sure what problems are relevant to something like TeX Live? can you elaborate? remember that TL does not do "make install" > Please note that I am NOT proposing that mkpkg be used for the > preparation of the TeXLive-4 CD, only that the paper's points be > considered prior to its production. I'd be glad of concrete points to worry about .. Sebastian PS since I have never yet run a TCL/TK application successfully, I really have my doubts about trying this one :-} 24-Feb-1999 13:18:02-GMT,3324;000000000001 Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA20547; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:17:56 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14201; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:17:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:17:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:16:00 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: Sebastian Rahtz asks: >> if you mean the advice to build a distribution on a "clean machine", No, I meant the comment in paragraph 2, column 2, page 251 of `mkpkg: A software packaging tool'' (available from http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/) that says: >> ... I found a few packages (e.g., TeX 3.1415) whose ``make >> install'' processes were so intelligent that the processes would >> install only certain files if they did not already exist. Since >> these files invariably existed on my machine, they were not >> installed during the ``make install'' phase of manifest generation >> and so they were not included in the manifest. The point here is that the install target should always rewrite every file it installs, even if unchanged, not do a check like this: if test -f $(installdir)/filename && cmp filename $(installdir)/filename then true else $(INSTALL) filename $(installdir)/filename fi to avoid replacing a file with an identical copy. A package manager needs to be able to determine which files have been installed by a package, and it cannot do so in the presence of tricks like that. Ideally, the install script should use a copy command that preserves file time stamps: cp -p works on many, but not all systems. rcp -p used to work universally, until some people started disabling it in favor of scp. >> ... >> PS since I have never yet run a TCL/TK application successfully, I >> really have my doubts about trying this one :-} >> ... The Tcl/Tk interface is optional (but often expected by novices who think that computers can only be operating by button pushing): the mkpkg scripts can all be command-line driven. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24-Feb-1999 13:27:37-GMT,5327;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA20764 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:27:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00FHLUMACE@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J845VVPNTS000SB0@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00FGZULRCE@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA20689 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:02 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14335 for tex-implementors@math.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA20547; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:17:56 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14201; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:17:55 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Resent-date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST) Resent-from: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:16:00 +0000 (GMT) Resent-to: tex-implementors@ams.org To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Resent-message-id: <199902241325.GAA14335@plot79.math.utah.edu> Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 Sebastian Rahtz asks: >> if you mean the advice to build a distribution on a "clean machine", No, I meant the comment in paragraph 2, column 2, page 251 of `mkpkg: A software packaging tool'' (available from http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/) that says: >> ... I found a few packages (e.g., TeX 3.1415) whose ``make >> install'' processes were so intelligent that the processes would >> install only certain files if they did not already exist. Since >> these files invariably existed on my machine, they were not >> installed during the ``make install'' phase of manifest generation >> and so they were not included in the manifest. The point here is that the install target should always rewrite every file it installs, even if unchanged, not do a check like this: if test -f $(installdir)/filename && cmp filename $(installdir)/filename then true else $(INSTALL) filename $(installdir)/filename fi to avoid replacing a file with an identical copy. A package manager needs to be able to determine which files have been installed by a package, and it cannot do so in the presence of tricks like that. Ideally, the install script should use a copy command that preserves file time stamps: cp -p works on many, but not all systems. rcp -p used to work universally, until some people started disabling it in favor of scp. >> ... >> PS since I have never yet run a TCL/TK application successfully, I >> really have my doubts about trying this one :-} >> ... The Tcl/Tk interface is optional (but often expected by novices who think that computers can only be operating by button pushing): the mkpkg scripts can all be command-line driven. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24-Feb-1999 13:31:54-GMT,2205;000000000001 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA20804 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:31:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id NAA23035; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:22:18 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:31:40 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 From: Sebastian Rahtz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14035.64828.348647.507131@srahtz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:23:08 +0000 (GMT) To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > The point here is that the install target should always rewrite every > file it installs, even if unchanged, not do a check like this: > .... > to avoid replacing a file with an identical copy. A package manager > needs to be able to determine which files have been installed by a > package, and it cannot do so in the presence of tricks like that. I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to overwrite the old configuration files, do you? installing is, after all, primarily for real people, not for other bits of software. in any case, I still dont see the relevance to TeX Live, since it does not have packages or installers of this type. or do you mean that the web2c maintainers should take note? > The Tcl/Tk interface is optional (but often expected by novices who > think that computers can only be operating by button pushing): the > mkpkg scripts can all be command-line driven. > ah, apologies, i thought the whole animal was written in Tk sebastian 24-Feb-1999 13:44:17-GMT,2589;000000000001 Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA21104; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:16 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14433; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" To: tex-implementors@math.ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Message-ID: Sebastian Rahtz writes: >> I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to >> overwrite the old configuration files, do you? It might have to: otherwise, how do you deal with new options that are in version n that were absent from version n-1. Of course, it could well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to a different name, or to a subdirectory. >> in any case, I still dont see the relevance to TeX Live, since it >> does not have packages or installers of this type. It would be worth checking with the mkpkg author, staelin@hpl.hp.com, to find out exactly which TeX release he was referring to, and to see if he has other comments that might be relevant. TeX is, after all, a very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the capabilities of a package manager. TeXLive, by virtue of largely requiring only the copying of an intact file tree to an empty slot in the local file system, does of course radically reduce the installation problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24-Feb-1999 14:21:54-GMT,2119;000000000001 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA21923 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:21:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id OAA25356; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:12:18 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:21:19 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 From: Sebastian Rahtz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:04:52 +0000 (GMT) To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > >> I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to > >> overwrite the old configuration files, do you? > > It might have to: otherwise, how do you deal with new options that are > in version n that were absent from version n-1. Of course, it could > well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to > a different name, or to a subdirectory. its an interesting question. dvips takes the same attitude, I recall, to config.ps. > very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 > ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the > capabilities of a package manager. and thats not all one could have. Werner Lemberg just gave me 40Mbytes of a CJK package to add in :-} of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on this list? sebastian 24-Feb-1999 14:23:15-GMT,2650;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA21947 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:23:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HR8X8TSN@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J847V8JNEO000QCG@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HR0X8CSN@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id OAA25348; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:12:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:21:19 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:04:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > >> I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to > >> overwrite the old configuration files, do you? > > It might have to: otherwise, how do you deal with new options that are > in version n that were absent from version n-1. Of course, it could > well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to > a different name, or to a subdirectory. its an interesting question. dvips takes the same attitude, I recall, to config.ps. > very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 > ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the > capabilities of a package manager. and thats not all one could have. Werner Lemberg just gave me 40Mbytes of a CJK package to add in :-} of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on this list? sebastian 24-Feb-1999 13:46:07-GMT,3358;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA21149 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:46:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00F1BVIDCE@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J846KR8BDC000Q58@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00F14VHWCE@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA21104; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:16 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA14433; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 Sebastian Rahtz writes: >> I am not sure I understand you. you don't *want* the installer to >> overwrite the old configuration files, do you? It might have to: otherwise, how do you deal with new options that are in version n that were absent from version n-1. Of course, it could well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to a different name, or to a subdirectory. >> in any case, I still dont see the relevance to TeX Live, since it >> does not have packages or installers of this type. It would be worth checking with the mkpkg author, staelin@hpl.hp.com, to find out exactly which TeX release he was referring to, and to see if he has other comments that might be relevant. TeX is, after all, a very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the capabilities of a package manager. TeXLive, by virtue of largely requiring only the copying of an intact file tree to an empty slot in the local file system, does of course radically reduce the installation problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24-Feb-1999 14:02:34-GMT,2286;000000000001 Received: from esemetz.ese-metz.fr (esemetz.ese-metz.fr [193.48.224.212]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA21486 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:02:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from NEUROMANCER.ese-metz.fr (neuromancer.ese-metz.fr [193.48.224.95]) by esemetz.ese-metz.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA05769; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:39:36 +0100 To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Fabrice POPINEAU Date: 24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"'s message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST)" Message-ID: Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070075 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.75) XEmacs/21.2(beta10) (Boreas) "Nelson H. F. Beebe" writes: > It would be worth checking with the mkpkg author, staelin@hpl.hp.com, > to find out exactly which TeX release he was referring to, and to see > if he has other comments that might be relevant. I can't speak for him, but given the context, I would say that his tool would be fine for people installing teTeX. Which is already a large and complex package. > TeX is, after all, a > very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 > ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the > capabilities of a package manager. TeXLive, by virtue of largely > requiring only the copying of an intact file tree to an empty slot in > the local file system, does of course radically reduce the > installation problem. Yes if you want a full install, not quite if you want to allow for package selection. The big problem can't be solved by the package manager only: how do you know which files go whith which other files ? This requires some hand work (Thanks Sebastian !). The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each package on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package have), then it would be possible to make a better use of such tools. -- Fabrice POPINEAU 24-Feb-1999 14:03:35-GMT,2875;000000000011 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA21524 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:03:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00H9ZWCNSN@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8477AJY5C000UZ5@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from esemetz.ese-metz.fr by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00H9VWC5SN@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from NEUROMANCER.ese-metz.fr (neuromancer.ese-metz.fr [193.48.224.95]) by esemetz.ese-metz.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA05769; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:39:36 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100 From: Fabrice POPINEAU Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"'s message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:15 -0700 (MST)" To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.070075 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.75) XEmacs/21.2(beta10) (Boreas) Lines: 30 References: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" writes: > It would be worth checking with the mkpkg author, staelin@hpl.hp.com, > to find out exactly which TeX release he was referring to, and to see > if he has other comments that might be relevant. I can't speak for him, but given the context, I would say that his tool would be fine for people installing teTeX. Which is already a large and complex package. > TeX is, after all, a > very large and complex package (I count 2741 directories and 40,407 > ordinary files in the TeXLive-3 release) that could well stress the > capabilities of a package manager. TeXLive, by virtue of largely > requiring only the copying of an intact file tree to an empty slot in > the local file system, does of course radically reduce the > installation problem. Yes if you want a full install, not quite if you want to allow for package selection. The big problem can't be solved by the package manager only: how do you know which files go whith which other files ? This requires some hand work (Thanks Sebastian !). The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each package on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package have), then it would be possible to make a better use of such tools. -- Fabrice POPINEAU 24-Feb-1999 14:26:00-GMT,4276;000000000001 Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA21998; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:53 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id HAA14738; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:52 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" To: Fabrice POPINEAU Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, "Nelson H. F. Beebe" , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100 Message-ID: Fabrice Popineau writes: >> The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each >> package on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package >> have), then it would be possible to make a better use of such tools. I heartily agree. I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team, and argued, unsuccessfully, for the inclusion of a Makefile in each LaTeX2e package directory to handle the unpacking and installation. It is a huge pain for me to complete an installation of the new LaTeX-2e release each half year, because I have to compare the old and new trees to figure out which additional packages have been unpacked (at user demand) during the previous six months, and then manually run LaTeX on each associated .ins file (and finding that file can require grepping the package directories to locate which one produced a particular installed file), and manually follow instructions like * To finish the installation you have to move the file * moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX or worse, * The file titles._stq is a faster replacement for the file * titles.sty. * * titles.stq is stripped of documentation and must be renamed * titles.sty before it may be used. While novices may be quite happy to use a LaTeX-2e release without unpacking a single additional package, I work at a large site, with more than 10,000 potential TeX users, of whom more than 250 are currently in our local tex-users mailing list, and some of whom have thousands of TeX-related files, so we find the need for many of the packages that do not come in unpacked form. While for a given release, I could use UNIX tools to build up cross-references of which files are in which packages, and might even be able to make a stab at turning .ins-file text like \Msg{***********************************************************} \Msg{*} \Msg{* To finish the installation you have to move the file} \Msg{* moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX} \Msg{*} \Msg{***********************************************************} into a Makefile command to do the move for some packages, there is a lot of irregularity in these hand-coded \Msg{} instructions that would have been far better expressed as explicit copy commands. Even if they were in the syntax of one particular O/S, they could easily be manipulated into that for another O/S. It would be much better if this work were done before the packages were released to thousands of end users, even if this meant a major delay in the LaTeX2e release the first time around. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24-Feb-1999 14:30:47-GMT,5050;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA22116 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:30:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HWXXFSSN@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8481DF8IO000V3T@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00HWMXFASN@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA21998; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:53 -0700 (MST) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id HAA14738; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:52 -0700 (MST) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:25:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100 To: Fabrice POPINEAU Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, "Nelson H. F. Beebe" , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 Fabrice Popineau writes: >> The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each >> package on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package >> have), then it would be possible to make a better use of such tools. I heartily agree. I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team, and argued, unsuccessfully, for the inclusion of a Makefile in each LaTeX2e package directory to handle the unpacking and installation. It is a huge pain for me to complete an installation of the new LaTeX-2e release each half year, because I have to compare the old and new trees to figure out which additional packages have been unpacked (at user demand) during the previous six months, and then manually run LaTeX on each associated .ins file (and finding that file can require grepping the package directories to locate which one produced a particular installed file), and manually follow instructions like * To finish the installation you have to move the file * moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX or worse, * The file titles._stq is a faster replacement for the file * titles.sty. * * titles.stq is stripped of documentation and must be renamed * titles.sty before it may be used. While novices may be quite happy to use a LaTeX-2e release without unpacking a single additional package, I work at a large site, with more than 10,000 potential TeX users, of whom more than 250 are currently in our local tex-users mailing list, and some of whom have thousands of TeX-related files, so we find the need for many of the packages that do not come in unpacked form. While for a given release, I could use UNIX tools to build up cross-references of which files are in which packages, and might even be able to make a stab at turning .ins-file text like \Msg{***********************************************************} \Msg{*} \Msg{* To finish the installation you have to move the file} \Msg{* moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX} \Msg{*} \Msg{***********************************************************} into a Makefile command to do the move for some packages, there is a lot of irregularity in these hand-coded \Msg{} instructions that would have been far better expressed as explicit copy commands. Even if they were in the syntax of one particular O/S, they could easily be manipulated into that for another O/S. It would be much better if this work were done before the packages were released to thousands of end users, even if this meant a major delay in the LaTeX2e release the first time around. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24-Feb-1999 15:20:09-GMT,2537;000000000001 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA23288 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:20:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA28484; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:10:14 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:19:29 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 From: Sebastian Rahtz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14036.3885.850502.556187@srahtz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:39:41 +0000 (GMT) To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > While for a given release, I could use UNIX tools to build up > cross-references of which files are in which packages, and might even > be able to make a stab at turning .ins-file text like > > \Msg{***********************************************************} > \Msg{*} > \Msg{* To finish the installation you have to move the file} > \Msg{* moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX} > \Msg{*} > \Msg{***********************************************************} > > into a Makefile command to do the move for some packages, there is a ah, I know this so well. maddening, isnt it. I am afraid my personal answer is a Perl script at which I throw a given package, and it attempts to figure out what it has, run .ins files, run .mf to make .tfm, what have you. Then it deals out the results to a TDS tree, builds a manifest file, and inserts the results into the target installation. This way at least I get some consistency, and reliable manifest files. On the downside, - some packages are so screwy that they fall over - some are simply "corrupt" (they dont even have correct checksums!) - I miss some niceties - i have to maintain exception list for various parts of the system still, its been a while since it failed to generate the right TDS tree for a typical package Sebastian 24-Feb-1999 15:20:52-GMT,3068;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA23304 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:20:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00KTLZXIPJ@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J849W5T2JK000VF1@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7N00KT9ZX1PJ@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA28491; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:10:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:19:29 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:39:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: To: beebe@math.utah.edu Cc: popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.3885.850502.556187@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > While for a given release, I could use UNIX tools to build up > cross-references of which files are in which packages, and might even > be able to make a stab at turning .ins-file text like > > \Msg{***********************************************************} > \Msg{*} > \Msg{* To finish the installation you have to move the file} > \Msg{* moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX} > \Msg{*} > \Msg{***********************************************************} > > into a Makefile command to do the move for some packages, there is a ah, I know this so well. maddening, isnt it. I am afraid my personal answer is a Perl script at which I throw a given package, and it attempts to figure out what it has, run .ins files, run .mf to make .tfm, what have you. Then it deals out the results to a TDS tree, builds a manifest file, and inserts the results into the target installation. This way at least I get some consistency, and reliable manifest files. On the downside, - some packages are so screwy that they fall over - some are simply "corrupt" (they dont even have correct checksums!) - I miss some niceties - i have to maintain exception list for various parts of the system still, its been a while since it failed to generate the right TDS tree for a typical package Sebastian 24-Feb-1999 15:42:41-GMT,2364;000000000001 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA23898 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:42:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA29663; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:33:01 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:42:29 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 From: Sebastian Rahtz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:32:50 +0000 (GMT) To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > > this list? > > Yes indeed, as they are packaging points and, dare I say it, rather unixy? no, you may NOT say "rather unixy". lets abandon once and for all the myth that only unix people use installation programs, or software engineering tools. > Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? > that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the > packagers can talk to us about that. Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as easy kiss your hand the long day of "one set of plain files and TeX is the only software we can use" is perhaps closing? did you see the film? the Long Day Closes, I mean? wow. and the director is the spitting image of Phil Taylor Sebastian 24-Feb-1999 15:44:28-GMT,2896;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA23921 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:44:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O00MF10ZFH2@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84APCTU3K000UV0@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O00MEO0YYH2@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id PAA29666; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:42:29 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:32:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > > this list? > > Yes indeed, as they are packaging points and, dare I say it, rather unixy? no, you may NOT say "rather unixy". lets abandon once and for all the myth that only unix people use installation programs, or software engineering tools. > Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? > that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the > packagers can talk to us about that. Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as easy kiss your hand the long day of "one set of plain files and TeX is the only software we can use" is perhaps closing? did you see the film? the Long Day Closes, I mean? wow. and the director is the spitting image of Phil Taylor Sebastian 24-Feb-1999 16:31:13-GMT,2185;000000000001 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA25107 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:31:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id QAA02203; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:21:36 GMT Received: from screavie.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:51 +0000 Received: from lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.7]) by screavie.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13676; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:15 GMT Received: (from srahtz@localhost) by lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29873; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:31 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:31 GMT Message-Id: <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> From: Sebastian Rahtz To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? > > Well, I would never try to use one anywhere else. I show them to girls to impress them > But if it so easy then please volunteer to set it up. hahahahahahahhahaha > Which variants? What must they look like? > Where would these installation packages go to? pass. ask those people who beg for .rpm files for everything > It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the > requirements should come from them. true. as a distributor, who *I* would like is for LaTeX to be distributed a s a set of TDS trees, please. > PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! that was the polite version of the saying s 24-Feb-1999 16:32:20-GMT,2734;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA25153 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:32:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O002I738HK9@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84CELHO1S000SRC@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O002HV37XK9@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id QAA02199; hop 0; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:21:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from screavie.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP) ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:51 +0000 Received: from lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.7]) by screavie.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13676; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: (from srahtz@localhost) by lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29873; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:31 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:30:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> Chris Rowley writes: > > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? > > Well, I would never try to use one anywhere else. I show them to girls to impress them > But if it so easy then please volunteer to set it up. hahahahahahahhahaha > Which variants? What must they look like? > Where would these installation packages go to? pass. ask those people who beg for .rpm files for everything > It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the > requirements should come from them. true. as a distributor, who *I* would like is for LaTeX to be distributed a s a set of TDS trees, please. > PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! that was the polite version of the saying s 24-Feb-1999 17:00:54-GMT,4372;000000000001 Received: from relay1.teleport.com (relay1.teleport.com [192.108.254.28]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA25967 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:00:52 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 12101 invoked by uid 5); 24 Feb 1999 17:00:51 -0000 Received: from 209-142-4-3.stk.inreach.net(209.142.4.3), claiming to be "teleport.com" via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA0C0Mcm; Wed Feb 24 09:00:43 1999 Message-ID: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:10:11 -0800 From: Arthur Ogawa Reply-To: ogawa@teleport.com Organization: TeX Consultants X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" CC: Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > > Fabrice Popineau writes: > > >> The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > >> package on CTAN had his own install script... > > I heartily agree. > > I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team... > ...there is a lot of irregularity in these hand-coded \Msg{} > instructions [in .ins files] This is a discussion I can relate to strongly. As I see it, there are a number of people around whose job it is to prepare a runnable LaTeX installation or install kit for many users. We should talk! Obviously Nelson is one, and Sebastian Rahtz (with TeX Live) is another. I myself prepare a runnable installatio for Textures users, distributed on . I would like to hear from others who perform this sort of task. I agree that reducing the amount of time involved would be a benefit. Of course, under MacOS, the benefit of Makefiles is not available, but that's quite a separate discussion (please). > It would be much better if this work were done before the packages > were released to thousands of end users, even if this meant a major > delay in the LaTeX2e release the first time around. Uh, this particular aspect of the discussion is sure to trigger ire frome Team LaTeX because it levels demands on them. Perhaps a more palatable suggestion might be to create a standard for .ins files so that they contain the information required to create the hypothetical Makefile (this standard to be promulgated by Team LaTeX) and to begin a program of correcting the existing .ins files. With many hands devoted to the task, the legacy material could be resolved (oftentimes by the implementor of that package), and with an existing standard, newly created packages would be done right the first time. To get down to specifics, probably the most commonly required action is to put certain files "where they will be found by LaTeX". Another common action is to deal with .fd files. I'd like to point out that these files, because they are used by macro packages other than LaTeX, must be put "where they can be found by TeX", not to mention that their names are effectively in a flat name space (like .tfm names). Probably one of the more complex builds involves latex.fmt itself. In the process files of several classes are created. Some are LaTeX run-time files, some are required for the \dump of latex.fmt, and still others are documentation files. In my kit, the end user gets all three; in particular I have to create a kit that allows a re\dump (for, e.g., babel users). Note, too, that there is some variation in exactly which files are available directly on CTAN. The AMS package, for instance, is somewhat unusual in that it comes pre-built. I actually like that, myself. What would be the downside of package authors providing fully built packages on CTAN? -- Arthur Ogawa/TeX Consultants voice: +1 209 561-4585 Fax: +1 209 561-4584 mailto:ogawa@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~ogawa ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/ogawa PGP key: finger -l ogawa@teleport.com ________________________________ For the best in (La)TeX-nical typesetting and Web page production join the TeX Users Group (TUG) --- browse at http://www.tug.org 24-Feb-1999 17:01:35-GMT,1536;000000000001 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA25985 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:01:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:53 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA23616; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:33 GMT From: Chris Rowley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:32 +0000 (GMT) To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > > > ... > > of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > this list? Yes indeed, as they are packaging points and, dare I say it, rather unixy? Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the packagers can talk to us about that. Chris Rowley --- On behalf of the LaTeX3 Project Team 24-Feb-1999 17:01:50-GMT,2422;000000000001 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA25996 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:01:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:30 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23646; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:16 GMT From: Chris Rowley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:15 +0000 (GMT) To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > > Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? Well, I would never try to use one anywhere else. > > > that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the > > packagers can talk to us about that. > Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on > just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could > trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are > computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as > easy kiss your hand Maybe we could. I have no idea what is needed or if we could. But if it so easy then please volunteer to set it up. Which variants? What must they look like? Where would these installation packages go to? It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the requirements should come from them. This does not sound like what Nelson was asking for. Why has no one else ever talked about it? > > the long day of "one set of plain files and TeX is the only software > we can use" is perhaps closing? Who can use? > > did you see the film? the Long Day Closes, I mean? wow. and the > director is the spitting image of Phil Taylor No. chris PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! 24-Feb-1999 17:01:58-GMT,1706;000000000001 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA26013 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:01:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:19 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23690; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:04 GMT From: Chris Rowley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:04 +0000 (GMT) To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14036.11176.435404.883281@fell.open.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > > It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the > > requirements should come from them. > true. as a distributor, who *I* would like is for LaTeX to be > distributed a s a set of TDS trees, please. It is --- by the good offices of that munificent benefactor Herr Doktor Esser. But that would not be useful to Nelson, would it? > > > PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! > that was the polite version of the saying As opposed to "hand biting"? chris 24-Feb-1999 17:02:35-GMT,4961;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA26040 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:02:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004624LXIB@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DFFR6VK000VCM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.teleport.com by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O0045L4LGIB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12101 invoked by uid 5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:00:51 +0000 Received: from 209-142-4-3.stk.inreach.net(209.142.4.3), claiming to be "teleport.com" via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA0C0Mcm; Wed Feb 24 09:00:43 1999 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:10:11 -0800 From: Arthur Ogawa Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Cc: Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Reply-to: ogawa@teleport.com Message-id: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> Organization: TeX Consultants MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > > Fabrice Popineau writes: > > >> The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > >> package on CTAN had his own install script... > > I heartily agree. > > I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team... > ...there is a lot of irregularity in these hand-coded \Msg{} > instructions [in .ins files] This is a discussion I can relate to strongly. As I see it, there are a number of people around whose job it is to prepare a runnable LaTeX installation or install kit for many users. We should talk! Obviously Nelson is one, and Sebastian Rahtz (with TeX Live) is another. I myself prepare a runnable installatio for Textures users, distributed on . I would like to hear from others who perform this sort of task. I agree that reducing the amount of time involved would be a benefit. Of course, under MacOS, the benefit of Makefiles is not available, but that's quite a separate discussion (please). > It would be much better if this work were done before the packages > were released to thousands of end users, even if this meant a major > delay in the LaTeX2e release the first time around. Uh, this particular aspect of the discussion is sure to trigger ire frome Team LaTeX because it levels demands on them. Perhaps a more palatable suggestion might be to create a standard for .ins files so that they contain the information required to create the hypothetical Makefile (this standard to be promulgated by Team LaTeX) and to begin a program of correcting the existing .ins files. With many hands devoted to the task, the legacy material could be resolved (oftentimes by the implementor of that package), and with an existing standard, newly created packages would be done right the first time. To get down to specifics, probably the most commonly required action is to put certain files "where they will be found by LaTeX". Another common action is to deal with .fd files. I'd like to point out that these files, because they are used by macro packages other than LaTeX, must be put "where they can be found by TeX", not to mention that their names are effectively in a flat name space (like .tfm names). Probably one of the more complex builds involves latex.fmt itself. In the process files of several classes are created. Some are LaTeX run-time files, some are required for the \dump of latex.fmt, and still others are documentation files. In my kit, the end user gets all three; in particular I have to create a kit that allows a re\dump (for, e.g., babel users). Note, too, that there is some variation in exactly which files are available directly on CTAN. The AMS package, for instance, is somewhat unusual in that it comes pre-built. I actually like that, myself. What would be the downside of package authors providing fully built packages on CTAN? -- Arthur Ogawa/TeX Consultants voice: +1 209 561-4585 Fax: +1 209 561-4584 mailto:ogawa@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~ogawa ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/ogawa PGP key: finger -l ogawa@teleport.com ________________________________ For the best in (La)TeX-nical typesetting and Web page production join the TeX Users Group (TUG) --- browse at http://www.tug.org 24-Feb-1999 17:05:22-GMT,2114;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA26112 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:05:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004BW4PEIB@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DI14WHS000SZM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O004AR4N8IB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:53 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA23616; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:33 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:27:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > Nelson H. F. Beebe writes: > > > ... > > of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > this list? Yes indeed, as they are packaging points and, dare I say it, rather unixy? Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the packagers can talk to us about that. Chris Rowley --- On behalf of the LaTeX3 Project Team 24-Feb-1999 17:06:04-GMT,3001;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA26136 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:06:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004GH4Q2IB@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DI14WHS000SZM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O004AR4N8IB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:30 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23646; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > > Of course, if there is anything platform independent (eg not a Makefile) > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? Well, I would never try to use one anywhere else. > > > that we can do to help for the packages we distribute, then the > > packagers can talk to us about that. > Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on > just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could > trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are > computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as > easy kiss your hand Maybe we could. I have no idea what is needed or if we could. But if it so easy then please volunteer to set it up. Which variants? What must they look like? Where would these installation packages go to? It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the requirements should come from them. This does not sound like what Nelson was asking for. Why has no one else ever talked about it? > > the long day of "one set of plain files and TeX is the only software > we can use" is perhaps closing? Who can use? > > did you see the film? the Long Day Closes, I mean? wow. and the > director is the spitting image of Phil Taylor No. chris PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! 24-Feb-1999 17:06:05-GMT,2286;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA26139 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:06:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O004LH4QQIB@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84DI14WHS000SZM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O004AR4N8IB@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:19 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23690; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:04 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.11176.435404.883281@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14036.9317.734997.894709@fell.open.ac.uk> <199902241630.QAA29873@lurgmhor.elsevier.co.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > > It still seeems to me to be a distributiors problem; so the > > requirements should come from them. > true. as a distributor, who *I* would like is for LaTeX to be > distributed a s a set of TDS trees, please. It is --- by the good offices of that munificent benefactor Herr Doktor Esser. But that would not be useful to Nelson, would it? > > > PS: now this "hand kissing" computer ... tell me more! > that was the polite version of the saying As opposed to "hand biting"? chris 24-Feb-1999 17:50:49-GMT,1052;000000000001 Received: from srv01.cas.org (srv01s4.cas.org [134.243.50.9]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA27301 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:50:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:50:10 -0500 (EST) From: lvirden@cas.org (Larry W. Virden) Message-Id: <9902241250.AA131@cas.org> Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14035.60800.854051.844524@srahtz> of Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:16:00 +0000 (GMT) To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@math.ams.com, tex-k@tug.org From: Sebastian Rahtz > PS since I have never yet run a TCL/TK application successfully, I > really have my doubts about trying this one :-} I've seldom had problems running Tcl/Tk apps myself... -- Larry W. Virden <*> O- "No one is what he seems." Unless explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting should be construed as representing my employer's opinions. 25-Feb-1999 3:55:29-GMT,2301;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA12434 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:55:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O002HSYUSFG@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8509FRGZ4000SVK@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O002HOYUCFG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 887 invoked by uid 50); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:54:10 +0000 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:54:10 -0800 From: Russ Allbery Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: Fabrice POPINEAU's message of "24 Feb 1999 15:09:13 +0100" To: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Lines: 20 References: Fabrice POPINEAU writes: > The problem with TeX-Live and the teTeX texmf tree is that all those > 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each package > on CTAN had his own install script (much as perl package have), then it > would be possible to make a better use of such tools. If and only if all of those install scripts were essentially the same and functioned in the same fashion. Quite a few packages on CTAN do have install scripts, namely lots of weirdly incompatible and usually not fully functional variations on make install. The advantage that Perl has here is that pretty much everyone who writes a Perl module just uses ExtUtils::MakeMaker and a standard Makefile.PL, since that functionality is part of Perl. As TeX itself contains no file installation tools as part of its core functionality, it's probably unlikely that CTAN will be able to achieve similar standardization. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) 25-Feb-1999 4:36:23-GMT,3785;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA13258 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:36:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7P002VO0RTFG@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J851OTHBFK000ZB4@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7P002VJ0RDFG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from infovore (root@infovore.xs4all.nl [194.109.13.254]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26374 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:35:36 +0100 (CET) Received: by infovore id m10FlLi-000cklC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:56:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:56:03 +0100 From: Olaf Weber Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"'s message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:25:01 -0700 (MST)" To: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <87aey3frmk.fsf@infovore.xs4all.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 55 References: Nelson H F Beebe writes: > No, I meant the comment in paragraph 2, column 2, page 251 of `mkpkg: > A software packaging tool'' (available from > http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Carl_Staelin/mkpkg/) that says: >>> ... I found a few packages (e.g., TeX 3.1415) whose ``make >>> install'' processes were so intelligent that the processes would >>> install only certain files if they did not already exist. Since >>> these files invariably existed on my machine, they were not >>> installed during the ``make install'' phase of manifest generation >>> and so they were not included in the manifest. > The point here is that the install target should always rewrite every > file it installs, even if unchanged, not do a check like this: > if test -f $(installdir)/filename && cmp filename $(installdir)/filename > then > true > else > $(INSTALL) filename $(installdir)/filename > fi > to avoid replacing a file with an identical copy. A package manager > needs to be able to determine which files have been installed by a > package, and it cannot do so in the presence of tricks like that. Actually, the offending code looks like this: if grep 'original mktexpk --' $(scriptdir)/mktexpk >/dev/null 2>&1\ || test ! -r $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; then \ $(INSTALL_SCRIPT) $(srcdir)/mktexpk $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; \ else true; fi As you can see, it is meant to prevent overwriting modified copies. It is not unusual for scripts like mktexpk to be rewritten to a lesser or greater extent, and just dumping the new one over the one would arouse the ire of the installer. One supposes that this could be rewritten like this, say: if grep 'original mktexpk --' $(scriptdir)/mktexpk >/dev/null 2>&1\ || test ! -r $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; then \ mv $(scriptdir)/mktexpk $(scriptdir)/mktexpk.O; \ $(INSTALL_SCRIPT) $(srcdir)/mktexpk $(scriptdir)/mktexpk; \ else true; fi so that a modified version is retained, and changes made to it can be merged with the newer version. -- Olaf Weber Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are quick to anger and have no need for subtlety. 25-Feb-1999 13:23:11-GMT,1649;000000000001 Received: from cs.umb.edu (cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.2]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA23376 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:23:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from hub.cs.umb.edu (hub.cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.161]) by cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09972; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:23:09 -0500 (EST) From: Karl Berry Received: (from karl@localhost) by hub.cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26931; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:23:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:23:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902251323.IAA26931@hub.cs.umb.edu> To: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging [Removed tex-implementors, they don't care about this web2c stuff] well make sense to preserve old configuration files, by moving them to a different name, or to a subdirectory. Probably these days it would be desirable for web2c install to install all of its files, preserving existing ones (if the magic string was missing). When I first wrote that stuff, there had never been a working make install with tex at all. It would have been a terrible mistake to overwrite everyone's carefully crafted and honed over the years maketexpk and psfonts.map files with my attempts to solve the world's problems. So I went to a lot of trouble to make the install work for people in practice, not just assuming I knew best. Anyway, if the mkpkg guy had started on an empty directory, it would have worked :). Personally, as you all have noted in the other mail, I find latex installation much more problematic -- until tex live came again. (Sebastian, you are a god :) Karl 25-Feb-1999 13:23:12-GMT,997;000000000001 Received: from cs.umb.edu (cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.2]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id GAA23380 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:23:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from hub.cs.umb.edu (hub.cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.161]) by cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09976; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:23:10 -0500 (EST) From: Karl Berry Received: (from karl@localhost) by hub.cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26945; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:23:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:23:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902251323.IAA26945@hub.cs.umb.edu> To: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Ideally, the install script should use a copy command that preserves file time stamps: cp -p works on many, but not all systems. Some people like the install command to record the time of installation, rather than compilation. This was pointed out to me when I suggested GNU install preserve time stamps by default. 24-Feb-1999 19:12:44-GMT,1485;000000000001 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA29567 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:12:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:39 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA23739; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:25 GMT From: Chris Rowley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:24 +0000 (GMT) To: ogawa@teleport.com Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" , Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> References: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14036.12764.995452.535814@fell.open.ac.uk> Arthur Ogawa wrote -- > Uh, this particular aspect of the discussion is sure to trigger ire > from Team LaTeX because it levels demands on them. Not ire, just weary sighs:-). At least I can understand Art's unprejudiced analysis of the problem! And the suggestion that perhaps there is not a simple solution and that this work could be done by others as well as us ... or is that just a silly delusion of mine? chris 24-Feb-1999 19:14:13-GMT,2063;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA29616 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:14:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7O009UVAQ0HL@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J84I23A8Z4000SC3@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7O00A3LAPHZQ@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:39 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA23739; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:25 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:12:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> To: ogawa@teleport.com Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" , Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14036.12764.995452.535814@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <36D43257.F03C54D8@teleport.com> Arthur Ogawa wrote -- > Uh, this particular aspect of the discussion is sure to trigger ire > from Team LaTeX because it levels demands on them. Not ire, just weary sighs:-). At least I can understand Art's unprejudiced analysis of the problem! And the suggestion that perhaps there is not a simple solution and that this work could be done by others as well as us ... or is that just a silly delusion of mine? chris 26-Feb-1999 16:59:13-GMT,2214;000000000001 Received: from melkor.mimuw.edu.pl (qmailr@melkor.mimuw.edu.pl [148.81.12.1]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA03722 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:58:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 14111 invoked by uid 3893); 26 Feb 1999 17:00:14 -0000 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:00:14 +0100 (MET) From: Marcin Wolinski To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" cc: Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team, and > argued, unsuccessfully, for the inclusion of a Makefile in each > LaTeX2e package directory to handle the unpacking and installation. > > It is a huge pain for me to complete an installation of the new > LaTeX-2e release each half year, because I have to compare the old and > new trees to figure out which additional packages have been unpacked > (at user demand) during the previous six months, and then manually run > LaTeX on each associated .ins file (and finding that file can require > grepping the package directories to locate which one produced a > particular installed file), and manually follow instructions like > > * To finish the installation you have to move the file > * moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX Starting from December 1995 DOCSTRIP can put generated files in user-specified directories. This is documented in docstrip.dtx (unfortunately the text was written by me, so it's only a kind of English). All .ins files in LaTeX `base' and `tools' parts contain \usedir{...} commands, and so by creating a two line docstrip.cfg one can cause DOCSTRIP to put files in appropriate directories ``where TeX can find them''. Unfortunately this is not true for packages from other sources. Moreover it's only a partial solution since it is not possible to create a new directory from within TeX. Marcin 26-Feb-1999 17:03:15-GMT,2798;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA03822 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:03:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7R00AALTUGJG@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J875XIWA2O00129W@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from melkor.mimuw.edu.pl by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7R00AAHTTNJG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14111 invoked by uid 3893); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:00:14 +0000 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:00:14 +0100 (MET) From: Marcin Wolinski Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Cc: Fabrice POPINEAU , tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > I have complained about this long ago to the LaTeX 2e team, and > argued, unsuccessfully, for the inclusion of a Makefile in each > LaTeX2e package directory to handle the unpacking and installation. > > It is a huge pain for me to complete an installation of the new > LaTeX-2e release each half year, because I have to compare the old and > new trees to figure out which additional packages have been unpacked > (at user demand) during the previous six months, and then manually run > LaTeX on each associated .ins file (and finding that file can require > grepping the package directories to locate which one produced a > particular installed file), and manually follow instructions like > > * To finish the installation you have to move the file > * moreverb.sty into a directory searched by TeX Starting from December 1995 DOCSTRIP can put generated files in user-specified directories. This is documented in docstrip.dtx (unfortunately the text was written by me, so it's only a kind of English). All .ins files in LaTeX `base' and `tools' parts contain \usedir{...} commands, and so by creating a two line docstrip.cfg one can cause DOCSTRIP to put files in appropriate directories ``where TeX can find them''. Unfortunately this is not true for packages from other sources. Moreover it's only a partial solution since it is not possible to create a new directory from within TeX. Marcin 26-Feb-1999 20:05:00-GMT,1332;000000000001 Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de (root@mgate.uni-hannover.de [130.75.2.3]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA08898 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:04:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:03 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30590; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:33:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:33:32 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Message-Id: <199902261833.TAA30590@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org > of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > this list? teTeX comes with a src and a texmf tree. The texmf tree is complete except for format/mem/base files which will be installed by "make install". So, one cannot miss a file. The list of files for the package can be generated by the filenames of the files in the texmf archive + the files which are installed during "make install". Thomas 26-Feb-1999 20:05:01-GMT,2064;000000000001 Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de (root@mgate.uni-hannover.de [130.75.2.3]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA08902 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:04:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:06 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30621; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:45:21 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:45:21 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Message-Id: <199902261845.TAA30621@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > I heartily agree. I agree, too. We can't write the necessary support files needed to get automatic installation for every existing package on CTAN, but we can try to find some kind of framework which the package writers might adopt. I think that, we can learn from the perl modules. Some command like tex install could read some install.tex (provided by the package author) plus some config file that the installed system has to provide. The result could be some shell script, Makefile or batch file that the system can process. The config file of the distribution would have all the system dependencies (paths, names for tools, name and format of the output file, ...). The install.tex file would have all the package dependant settings (names of files to be installed into which *logical* location, etc. ...) Hey, if perl can write a Makefile (matching exactly the configuration of the installed perl interpreter), TeX will surely be able to do something similar. Should we start a project for this? Who would be willing to join the discussion or even suggest some implementation? I don't think that we should discuss everything here... Thomas 26-Feb-1999 20:05:02-GMT,1562;000000000001 Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de (root@mgate.uni-hannover.de [130.75.2.3]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA08905 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:05:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:08 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30625; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:53:03 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:53:03 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Message-Id: <199902261853.TAA30625@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? 1) make is not available everywhere 2) you can't be sure which commands you can call 3) you don't know which command interpreter executes the commands My suggestion is that the TeX implementation should define its capabilities and paths in some file that TeX reads when you do the equivalent command (whatever this will be) of perl Makefile.PL The authors of perl modules follow the guidelines of writing a Makefile.PL suitable for the installation of their package. I don't see why authors of TeX packages should not be able to do something similar. Really, we need a framework. Then, I am sure that new packages will adopt this. Thomas 26-Feb-1999 20:05:03-GMT,1757;000000000001 Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de (root@mgate.uni-hannover.de [130.75.2.3]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA08907 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:05:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:01 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30676; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Message-Id: <199902261911.UAA30676@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: ogawa@teleport.com Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org > > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > > >> package on CTAN had his own install script... I don't think that we can find some kind of install script which will run everywhere. My idea is that the installation procedure should be described in a logical way allowing some program (e.g. tex) to generate something suitable for the given TeX installation. > As I see it, there are a number of people around whose job it is to prepare a > runnable LaTeX installation or install kit for many users. We should talk! > > Obviously Nelson is one, and Sebastian Rahtz (with TeX Live) is another. I > myself prepare a runnable installatio for Textures users, distributed on > . I would > like to hear from others who perform this sort of task. Hi, I happen do do such things, too (teTeX) :-) Thomas 26-Feb-1999 20:10:13-GMT,1873;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA09036 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:10:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I6S2HF21@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG0UGPC0016KM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:03 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30590; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:33:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:33:32 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261833.TAA30590@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > of course these issues should really be addressed to Thomas Esser and > Christian Schenk, as two of the most active packagers. are they on > this list? teTeX comes with a src and a texmf tree. The texmf tree is complete except for format/mem/base files which will be installed by "make install". So, one cannot miss a file. The list of files for the package can be generated by the filenames of the files in the texmf archive + the files which are installed during "make install". Thomas 26-Feb-1999 20:10:14-GMT,2298;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA09038 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:10:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I6S2HF21@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG05I6O0014ZP@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:01 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30676; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:11:51 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: ogawa@teleport.com Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261911.UAA30676@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > > >> package on CTAN had his own install script... I don't think that we can find some kind of install script which will run everywhere. My idea is that the installation procedure should be described in a logical way allowing some program (e.g. tex) to generate something suitable for the given TeX installation. > As I see it, there are a number of people around whose job it is to prepare a > runnable LaTeX installation or install kit for many users. We should talk! > > Obviously Nelson is one, and Sebastian Rahtz (with TeX Live) is another. I > myself prepare a runnable installatio for Textures users, distributed on > . I would > like to hear from others who perform this sort of task. Hi, I happen do do such things, too (teTeX) :-) Thomas 26-Feb-1999 20:10:15-GMT,2605;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA09041 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:10:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I4O2H421@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG1KE2O00147B@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:06 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30621; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:45:21 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:45:21 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261845.TAA30621@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > >> 'packages' found on CTAN do not have install procedures. If each > I heartily agree. I agree, too. We can't write the necessary support files needed to get automatic installation for every existing package on CTAN, but we can try to find some kind of framework which the package writers might adopt. I think that, we can learn from the perl modules. Some command like tex install could read some install.tex (provided by the package author) plus some config file that the installed system has to provide. The result could be some shell script, Makefile or batch file that the system can process. The config file of the distribution would have all the system dependencies (paths, names for tools, name and format of the output file, ...). The install.tex file would have all the package dependant settings (names of files to be installed into which *logical* location, etc. ...) Hey, if perl can write a Makefile (matching exactly the configuration of the installed perl interpreter), TeX will surely be able to do something similar. Should we start a project for this? Who would be willing to join the discussion or even suggest some implementation? I don't think that we should discuss everything here... Thomas 26-Feb-1999 20:10:16-GMT,2103;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA09044 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:10:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I5M2HC21@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87CG28VMO0014ZS@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00I412FS21@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h05.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:08 +0100 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA30625; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:53:03 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:53:03 +0100 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199902261853.TAA30625@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > what is platform dependent about a Makefile, pray??? 1) make is not available everywhere 2) you can't be sure which commands you can call 3) you don't know which command interpreter executes the commands My suggestion is that the TeX implementation should define its capabilities and paths in some file that TeX reads when you do the equivalent command (whatever this will be) of perl Makefile.PL The authors of perl modules follow the guidelines of writing a Makefile.PL suitable for the installation of their package. I don't see why authors of TeX packages should not be able to do something similar. Really, we need a framework. Then, I am sure that new packages will adopt this. Thomas 26-Feb-1999 21:35:47-GMT,1487;000000000001 Received: from relay1.teleport.com (relay1.teleport.com [192.108.254.28]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id OAA11448 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:35:46 -0700 (MST) Received: (qmail 1766 invoked by uid 5); 26 Feb 1999 21:35:45 -0000 Received: from 209-142-6-55.stk.inreach.net(209.142.6.55), claiming to be "teleport.com" via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA9ue61_; Fri Feb 26 13:35:39 1999 Message-ID: <36D715CC.A7B052B1@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:45:03 -0800 From: Arthur Ogawa Reply-To: ogawa@teleport.com Organization: TeX Consultants X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Esser CC: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging References: <199902261845.TAA30621@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Esser wrote: > Should we start a project for this? Who would be willing to join the > discussion or even suggest some implementation? I don't think that we > should discuss everything here... Great to hear from you! TUG would be happy to host a mail list on this topic. Please mailto:tex-pak-request@tug.org with a message containing the line: subscribe This list is archived by mhonarc at http://www.tug.org/mail-archives/tex-pak -- Arthur Ogawa, TUG secretary 26-Feb-1999 21:36:49-GMT,2076;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA11467 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:36:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7S00KBH6O6VA@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J87FLZJ8Z40012AJ@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.teleport.com by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7S00KBD6NNVA@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1766 invoked by uid 5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:35:45 +0000 Received: from 209-142-6-55.stk.inreach.net(209.142.6.55), claiming to be "teleport.com" via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA9ue61_; Fri Feb 26 13:35:39 1999 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:45:03 -0800 From: Arthur Ogawa Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging To: Thomas Esser Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, popineau@ese-metz.fr, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Reply-to: ogawa@teleport.com Message-id: <36D715CC.A7B052B1@teleport.com> Organization: TeX Consultants MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199902261845.TAA30621@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> Thomas Esser wrote: > Should we start a project for this? Who would be willing to join the > discussion or even suggest some implementation? I don't think that we > should discuss everything here... Great to hear from you! TUG would be happy to host a mail list on this topic. Please mailto:tex-pak-request@tug.org with a message containing the line: subscribe This list is archived by mhonarc at http://www.tug.org/mail-archives/tex-pak -- Arthur Ogawa, TUG secretary 1-Mar-1999 8:43:28-GMT,1754;000000000001 Received: from perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de (perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.DE [134.93.8.147]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA17544 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:43:24 -0700 (MST) Received: (from schoepf@localhost) by perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13878; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:41:15 +0100 (MET) From: Rainer Schoepf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:41:14 +0100 (MET) To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org, schoepf@uni-mainz.de Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Organization: Johannes Gutenberg-Universitaet Mainz Sebastian Rahtz writes: > Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on > just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could > trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are > computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as > easy kiss your hand Sebastian, at the moment it's me who sets up the build process, and I do not have time for anything else. If someone gives me a ready made tool for doing something, fine. Everything else is out of the question. I would probably not add .rpm or the like to the main LaTeX distribution, but that's not the issue. Rainer 1-Mar-1999 8:45:31-GMT,2333;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA17582 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:45:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7W00M26QWH31@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 03:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8AVI372XC001BN2@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7W00M20QVS31@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from schoepf@localhost) by perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13878; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:41:15 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:41:14 +0100 (MET) From: Rainer Schoepf Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org, schoepf@uni-mainz.de Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> Organization: Johannes Gutenberg-Universitaet Mainz MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.62 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> Sebastian Rahtz writes: > Nelson can give you a longer list than me. but why do you insist on > just one format? since your master sources are on a Unix box, it could > trivially build lots of variant installation packages. what are > computers for? it can spit a .deb or .rpm file out every 6 months as > easy kiss your hand Sebastian, at the moment it's me who sets up the build process, and I do not have time for anything else. If someone gives me a ready made tool for doing something, fine. Everything else is out of the question. I would probably not add .rpm or the like to the main LaTeX distribution, but that's not the issue. Rainer 1-Mar-1999 12:45:46-GMT,1910;000000000001 Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id FAA21846 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 05:45:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id MAA03954; hop 0; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:36:05 GMT Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:44:35 +0000 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 From: Sebastian Rahtz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14042.33070.371880.212546@srahtz> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:59:42 +0000 (GMT) To: schoepf@uni-mainz.de Cc: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> Rainer Schoepf writes: > Sebastian, at the moment it's me who sets up the build process, and I > do not have time for anything else. If someone gives me a ready made > tool for doing something, fine. Everything else is out of the > question. > fair point. I think we all agree that you (the LaTeX team) should not have to invest any time in this. As long as you are happy with the concept of a more complex build procedure written by someone else, we should all be happy not that I have any time either... sebastian 1-Mar-1999 12:46:37-GMT,2446;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id FAA21870 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 05:46:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7X001Q924PFX@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:46:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8B3YTMXXS001DV6@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 07:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7X001Q2246FX@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 07:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id MAA03957; hop 0; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:36:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:44:35 +0000 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 11:59:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> To: schoepf@uni-mainz.de Cc: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14042.33070.371880.212546@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> Rainer Schoepf writes: > Sebastian, at the moment it's me who sets up the build process, and I > do not have time for anything else. If someone gives me a ready made > tool for doing something, fine. Everything else is out of the > question. > fair point. I think we all agree that you (the LaTeX team) should not have to invest any time in this. As long as you are happy with the concept of a more complex build procedure written by someone else, we should all be happy not that I have any time either... sebastian 1-Mar-1999 15:02:57-GMT,2425;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA24627 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:02:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F7X009798F0B3@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8B8Q33OC0001BJL@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F7X0095K8EEB3@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:40:36 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA28541; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:40:15 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:40:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-reply-to: <14042.33070.371880.212546@srahtz> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: schoepf@uni-mainz.de, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14042.38997.570867.525527@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> <14042.33070.371880.212546@srahtz> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > Rainer Schoepf writes: > > Sebastian, at the moment it's me who sets up the build process, and I > > do not have time for anything else. If someone gives me a ready made > > tool for doing something, fine. Everything else is out of the > > question. > > > fair point. I think we all agree that you (the LaTeX team) should > not have to invest any time in this. As long as you are happy > with the concept of a more complex build procedure written by someone > else, we should all be happy Excellent news! > > not that I have any time either... Let us hope some other packager, or site maintainer does? chris 1-Mar-1999 19:14:42-GMT,1843;000000000001 Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA02372 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:14:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:40:36 +0000 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA28541; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:40:15 GMT From: Chris Rowley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:40:14 +0000 (GMT) To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: schoepf@uni-mainz.de, beebe@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org, tex-k@tug.org Subject: Re: TeX and software packaging In-Reply-To: <14042.33070.371880.212546@srahtz> References: <14036.1796.802929.532219@srahtz> <14036.6382.496327.450760@fell.open.ac.uk> <14036.7074.789224.715542@srahtz> <14042.21162.53597.624361@perdita.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> <14042.33070.371880.212546@srahtz> X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <14042.38997.570867.525527@fell.open.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote -- > Rainer Schoepf writes: > > Sebastian, at the moment it's me who sets up the build process, and I > > do not have time for anything else. If someone gives me a ready made > > tool for doing something, fine. Everything else is out of the > > question. > > > fair point. I think we all agree that you (the LaTeX team) should > not have to invest any time in this. As long as you are happy > with the concept of a more complex build procedure written by someone > else, we should all be happy Excellent news! > > not that I have any time either... Let us hope some other packager, or site maintainer does? chris 14-Mar-1999 15:29:53-GMT,2368;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA09638 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:29:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8L000G9CCN8J@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8TFGMXCKG001NBD@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F8L00101CC6XG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:28:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:28:54 -0500 (EST) From: Barbara Beeton Subject: re: spam message "ALLIANCE WANTED" To: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i am distressed that spam messages such as the one cited in the subject are getting through to this list. this is a private list, and the address should not be in general circulation. it is also unmoderated, and i do not wish to change that, for two reasons: - it would result in delays in transmission, even when i am "at home". - it would cut down on the spontaneity of discussions. i have requested that the address on the cited message be filtered out, so that nothing from that address is passed on to a list or recipient; i have no reason to believe that this request will be turned down. however, that's only this address. i can think of only one way that the address of this list could have become public, so that spiders and other net crawlers could find it, and that is if someone has installed the tex-implementors traffic in a public archive on the web. while i have no problem with this (other list members may have other opinions), i would like to ask anyone who has done this to first, please, modify the list address and headers so that they can't be used directly by an automatic address-grabber. this was only the second piece of irrelevant spam i can remember receiving since the list was established. i'd like to keep it that way. your help will be appreciated. -- bb 14-Mar-1999 18:18:47-GMT,2597;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA12798 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:18:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8L0033CK3XTK@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8TLBDVESG001KEZ@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cs.umb.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8L00338K3FTK@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from hub.cs.umb.edu (hub.cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.161]) by cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14519 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:16:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by hub.cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24435; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:16:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:16:26 -0500 (EST) From: Karl Berry Subject: re: spam message "ALLIANCE WANTED" To: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199903141816.NAA24435@hub.cs.umb.edu> this is a private list, and the address should not be in general circulation. `general circulation' doesn't mean much on the internet. All it has to do is show up on one web page or usenet article and it can be harvested and then mailed to. Certainly tex-implementors@ams.org has been mentioned on comp.text.tex. if someone has installed the tex-implementors traffic in a public archive on the web. Well, my tex-implementors archive is accessible by anonymous ftp (as we've discussed at length in the past) although as far as I know there are no pointers to it anywhere. I don't rewrite any addresses in the archive, though. i have requested that the address on the cited message be filtered out, so that nothing from that address is passed on to a list or recipient; i have no reason to believe that this request will be turned down. however, that's only this address. There is another possible technical solution: change the list such that only people on the list can post to it *and* if someone not on the list sends to it, the mail goes to the list owner (you, I guess). Then you can decide whether to resend or not. This would merely mean a short delay in non-members' postings reaching the list, while members' postings would still not have to relayed by you. 14-Mar-1999 19:08:12-GMT,2294;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA13768 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:08:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8L003EJMG7TK@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8TN333PSG001I53@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F8L00501MFQ0U@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:07:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:07:02 -0500 (EST) From: Barbara Beeton Subject: re: spam message "ALLIANCE WANTED" In-reply-to: <199903141816.NAA24435@hub.cs.umb.edu> To: Karl Berry Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII thanks for the suggestions, karl. There is another possible technical solution: change the list such that only people on the list can post to it *and* if someone not on the list sends to it, the mail goes to the list owner (you, I guess). Then you can decide whether to resend or not. This would merely mean a short delay in non-members' postings reaching the list, while members' postings would still not have to relayed by you. unfortunately, the list runs under a vms alias, not something like listserv or majordomo, so this isn't an option without major changes; with the present setup, it's all or nothing, and although a delay could be built in with a second address (for distribution, leaving tex-implementors itself for delivery only to me), if someone else used the distribution address, i couldn't stop it. mailing list software may be installed here sometime (it may already exist on a machine that i don't currently have access to), but the change would be a pretty big (though one-time) hassle. so it's not likely to happen real soon. let's hope that spam doesn't get to be too big a problem. -- bb 15-Mar-1999 11:53:59-GMT,1393;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA02625 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:53:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8M00GVZX08AZ@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8UM7V2POG001FHO@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from vms.rhbnc.ac.uk (alpha1.rhbnc.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F8M00GVVWYKAZ@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:52:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:51:52 +0000 (GMT) From: "Philip Taylor (RHBNC) " Subject: TeX Implementors list To: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Cc: CHAA006@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Reply-to: P.Taylor@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk Message-id: <990315115152.29c40@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk> >> unfortunately, the list runs under a vms alias, not something like >> listserv or majordomo, so this isn't an option without major changes; I could supply my VMS list server code, which performs exactly the sort of members-only-can-post authentication that Karl suggests. ** Phil. 15-Mar-1999 14:43:36-GMT,2106;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA05762 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:43:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8N00L6E4TVL8@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8US4D7U8W001QXL@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8N00L664TFL8@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]; by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP; for ""; sender "s.rahtz@elsevier.co.uk"; id OAA17285; hop 0; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from srahtz (actually host srahtz.elsevier.co.uk) by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:41:08 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:23:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: TeX Implementors list In-reply-to: <990315115152.29c40@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk> To: P.Taylor@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk Cc: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14061.6117.478966.27977@srahtz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: emacs 20.3.2 (via feedmail 9-beta-3 Q); VM 6.61 under Emacs 20.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <990315115152.29c40@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk> "Philip Taylor (RHBNC) " writes: > >> unfortunately, the list runs under a vms alias, not something like > >> listserv or majordomo, so this isn't an option without major changes; > > I could supply my VMS list server code, which performs exactly > the sort of members-only-can-post authentication that Karl > suggests. > why dont we put tex-implementors on www.tug.org? sebastian 15-Mar-1999 15:56:11-GMT,2093;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA07407 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:56:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8N00L3Y87XL8@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8UUO6FOJ4001LLA@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.teleport.com by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F8N00L3U87HL8@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17768 invoked by uid 5); Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:54:52 +0000 Received: from 209-142-8-86.stk.inreach.net(209.142.8.86), claiming to be "teleport.com" via SMTP by relay1.teleport.com, id smtpdAAA0sA4AB; Mon Mar 15 07:54:47 1999 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:09:59 -0800 From: Arthur Ogawa Subject: Re: TeX Implementors list To: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Reply-to: ogawa@teleport.com Message-id: <36ED2F6B.876C56A0@teleport.com> Organization: TeX Consultants MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <990315115152.29c40@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk> <14061.6117.478966.27977@srahtz> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > "Philip Taylor writes: > > Barbara Beeton wrote: > > >> unfortunately, the list runs under a vms alias, not something > > >> like listserv or majordomo, so this isn't an option without major > > >> changes; > > I could supply my VMS list server code > why dont we put tex-implementors on www.tug.org? For the record, I would be happy to set this up, and I'm sure that majordomo on tug.org would be up to the task. All usual configuration options are available, and Barbara could remain list owner in the sense of controlling additions to the list. -- Arthur 16-Mar-1999 22:46:05-GMT,2344;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA17117 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:46:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F8P009V5LU495@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:44:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J8WN8YDPOG001SDH@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F8P00B01LTL0A@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:44:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:44:09 -0500 (EST) From: Barbara Beeton Subject: Re: TeX Implementors list In-reply-to: <36ED2F6B.876C56A0@teleport.com> To: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII sebastian asked, why dont we put tex-implementors on www.tug.org? and art responded, For the record, I would be happy to set this up, and I'm sure that majordomo on tug.org would be up to the task. All usual configuration options are available, and Barbara could remain list owner in the sense of controlling additions to the list. when i set up the list, i promised that it would be private. the way it's set up now, the history of the list is actually embedded in the list, and i don't want to lose that. i have found that majordomo can be made available here at ams, so i am first investigating that. thanks for the suggestion and the offer. i may come back to that, but there are other things i'd like to explore first. one thing that seems clear, however, is that if any changes are made, one of the first will probably be to make the list available to members only. thus, if anyone's address has changed since it was last updated (and there are addresses on it that haven't been changed since 1987), that person will suddenly find that the list is inaccessible. so now would be a good time to let me know, either to bnb at ams.org, or to tex-implementors-request at ams.org, not to the list itself. -- bb 29-Mar-1999 16:30:18-GMT,1899;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA06411 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:30:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9D00682726VW@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J9EFV1Q2SG001FF1@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F9D0066F715VW@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:27:03 +0100 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA28712; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:26:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:26:16 +0100 (BST) From: Chris Rowley Subject: nohyphens In-reply-to: <199902261911.UAA30676@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14079.42392.725745.196446@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199902261911.UAA30676@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> I am not sure if this is really something for this list, but since I know that here it will be read by "the right people", I will ask it here. Are there any conventions or ad hoc decisions already being used for that most useful of beasts, the unspecified \language with empty hyphenation patterns. I could not find anything by looking in the "usual places" but please tell me if I have missed something. Thanks chris 29-Mar-1999 20:18:17-GMT,2459;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA13413 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:18:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9D00J01HPXGH@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9D00I87HP37Z@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J9ENW6NB68001F9N@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9D00J01HOLFC@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mgate.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9D00I7ZHOK7Z@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (actually h45.ts1.uni-hannover.de) by mgate.uni-hannover.de with LocalSMTP (PP) with ESMTP; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:16:40 +0200 Received: (from te@localhost) by gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA17514; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:36:36 +0200 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:36:36 +0200 From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: nohyphens To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199903291936.VAA17514@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > Are there any conventions or ad hoc decisions already being used for > that most useful of beasts, the unspecified \language with empty > hyphenation patterns. I have added "nohyphenation" to the language.dat file I distribute with teTeX, but one cannot rely on the availability of that "language", because: - not all format files are build using babel's language.dat (e.g. plain and amstex just loads Knuth's hyphen.tex) and etex loads language.def - the user / administrator might decide to uncomment / change that line in language.dat before building the formats The idea came from the sample language.dat of the french package by Bernard Gaulle. It was added to teTeX after the 0.4 release, i.e. it is only available in the beta versions of teTeX-0.9. Thomas 31-Mar-1999 19:41:09-GMT,2433;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA19787 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:41:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9H0000159D5B@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:39:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9H00KOL58PXC@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J9HF4ZT4CG001O96@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9H0000158847@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F9H00KOA587XC@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:38:30 +0100 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA00830; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:37:42 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:37:41 +0100 (BST) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: nohyphens In-reply-to: <199903291936.VAA17514@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: Thomas Esser Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14082.30845.979931.934603@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199903291936.VAA17514@gauss.informatik.uni-hannover.de> Thomas > > Are there any conventions or ad hoc decisions already being used for > > that most useful of beasts, the unspecified \language with empty > > hyphenation patterns. > > I have added "nohyphenation" to the language.dat file I distribute with > teTeX, but one cannot rely on the availability of that "language", because: Sure: I mainly wanted to check if someone had already set-up a name for this. So we now know that there is a name in language.dat. Does babel automatically generate from this a csname \nohyphenation? Thnaks, chris 1-Apr-1999 8:21:02-GMT,1793;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA08115 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:21:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9I00L014HHSU@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9I00JS24GUNT@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J9I5PCBBVK001US1@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9I00L014GCRG@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9I00JRL4GBNT@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from te@localhost) by regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA29446; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:19:02 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:19:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Thomas Esser Subject: Re: nohyphens To: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199904010819.KAA29446@regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de> > Does babel automatically generate from this a csname \nohyphenation? No. You can't even do \selectlanguage{nohyphenation} All you can do is \language\l@nohyphenation I am not sure if people are really using that nohyphenation "trick". Thomas 1-Apr-1999 8:37:37-GMT,2231;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA08422 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:37:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9I00M0159YBL@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9I00JYT59CNT@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J9I6BIPSRK001RN8@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9I00M0158UAV@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lumiere.idris.fr by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9I00JYO58UNT@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 03:36:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from murnau.idris.fr (murnau.idris.fr [130.84.8.20]) by lumiere.idris.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12830; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:36:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from gaulle@localhost) by murnau.idris.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA02364; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:36:19 +0200 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:36:19 +0200 From: Bernard GAULLE Subject: Re: nohyphens To: Thomas Esser Cc: C.A.Rowley@open.ac.uk, tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199904010836.KAA02364@murnau.idris.fr> >>>>> On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:19:02 +0200 (MET DST), >>>>> Thomas Esser write about "Re: nohyphens": Chris> Does babel automatically generate from this a csname \nohyphenation? TE> No. You can't even do TE> \selectlanguage{nohyphenation} i'm afraid it could not work since there is no *.ldf file. Have you tried? By the way i believed that \selectlanguage{X} and \X were proposed and do the same things... ? TE> I am not sure if people are really using that nohyphenation "trick". some do with my _french_ package. --bg 1-Apr-1999 18:55:06-GMT,2599;000000000001 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA22323 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:55:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9I00101XVHEF@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0F9I00MLUXURWS@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01J9IRVA95W000032H@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0F9I00101XU7DA@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from venus.open.ac.uk by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0F9I00MLAXU6WS@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from fell.open.ac.uk by venus with SMTP Local (MMTA v2.2) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:54:05 +0100 Received: (from car2@localhost) by fell.open.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA01926; Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:53:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:53:16 +0100 (BST) From: Chris Rowley Subject: Re: nohyphens In-reply-to: <199904010819.KAA29446@regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de> To: Thomas Esser Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14083.48252.195970.137592@fell.open.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 19.34.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199904010819.KAA29446@regulus.informatik.uni-hannover.de> Thomas > No. You can't even do > \selectlanguage{nohyphenation} > > All you can do is > \language\l@nohyphenation OK, but the main point right now (for me) is that the label nohyphenation (ie not nohyphens or NoWordDivsison or ...) has been used somewhere reasonably canonica. That was all I needed for now. > > I am not sure if people are really using that nohyphenation "trick". Well, I am about to do so (for a very specialised application so it will have no further repercussions for anthing else). My current thesis is that it is not "a trick" but The Golden Way to local suppression of hyphenation for part of a paragraph (but this is not the place to debate that). Thanks for your help, chris 8-May-1999 14:53:23-GMT,5517;000000000001 Received: from tug.org (IDENT:daemon@tug.org [158.121.106.10]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA29259 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 08:53:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by tug.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA30160 for tex-pretest-list; Sat, 8 May 1999 09:44:09 -0400 Received: from cs.umb.edu (cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.2]) by tug.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA30155 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 09:44:07 -0400 Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu (root@csc-sun.math.utah.edu [128.110.198.2]) by cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16830 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 10:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from plot79.math.utah.edu (beebe@plot79.math.utah.edu [155.101.20.21]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA29096; Sat, 8 May 1999 08:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by plot79.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id IAA29803; Sat, 8 May 1999 08:46:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:46:15 -0600 (MDT) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" To: TeXhax@tex.ac.uk, LATEX-L@URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Subject: Two important new books Message-ID: Sender: owner-tex-pretest@tug.org Precedence: bulk Last night, I bought two important new books which have just appeared at bookstores in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA: The preface to the first begins: This books brings together more than 30 articles nad notes that I have written about the subject of digital typography, popularly called ``desktop publishing''. ... I guess I must have ink in my veins. @String{pub-CSLI = "CSLI Publications"} @String{pub-CSLI:adr = "Stanford, CA, USA"} @Book{Knuth:1999:DT, author = "Donald E. Knuth", title = "Digital Typography", publisher = pub-CSLI, address = pub-CSLI:adr, pages = "xvi + 685", year = "1999", ISBN = "1-57586-011-2 (cloth), 1-57586-010-4 (paperback)", LCCN = "Z249.3.K59 1998", bibdate = "Sat May 08 07:52:35 1999", price = "US\$29.95", acknowledgement = ack-nhfb, } The second book is the long-awaited definition of PostScript Language Level 3. While previous editions of several Adobe PostScript books had a distinctive spine, with red at the top, and white at the bottom, this new one unfortunately has a black spine, with red and white lettering, making it harder to spot on a bookshelf. The cover retains the old red/white style. Although Apple and Xante have been shipping printers with Level 3 support for more than two years, Hewlett-Packard (visit them at http://www.hp.com/go/printers) only in the last few months, with the new HP Color LaserJet 8500, offers such support, and the number two printer vendor, Lexmark, has yet to do so. @String{pub-AW = "Ad{\-d}i{\-s}on-Wes{\-l}ey"} @String{pub-AW:adr = "Reading, MA, USA"} @Book{Adobe:1999:PLR, author = "{Adobe Systems Incorporated}", title = "{PostScript} Language Reference", publisher = pub-AW, address = pub-AW:adr, edition = "Third", pages = "xii + 897", year = "1999", ISBN = "0-201-37922-8", LCCN = "QA76.73.P67 P67 1999", bibdate = "Sat May 08 07:43:15 1999", price = "US\$49.95, CDN\$74.95", acknowledgement = ack-nhfb, } -------------------------------- Entries for these books, and related publications, can be found in the bibliography archives at ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/master.* ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/postscri.* ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/texbook3.* http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table-m.html#master http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table-p.html#postscri http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table-t.html#texbook3 The master Web page for these collections can be found at http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table.html with brief journal tables-of-contents at http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/toc/ and extensive cross-referenced journal article indexes at http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/idx/index.html These collections are mirrored regularly to several other Internet archives, include the huge Karlsruhe Computer Science archive at http://liinwww.ira.uka.de/bibliography/ That page includes pointers to eight mirror sites around the globe. The Karlsruhe archive contains about 930,000 entries, of which 232,659 come from the Utah archive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26-May-1999 15:12:57-GMT,5718;000000000000 Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA18623 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:12:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FCC00301I7Z3F@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FCC001H6I6Z86@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #30286) with ESMTP id <01JBNG83BJV4000SZX@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FCC00301I6G2C@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from csc-sun.math.utah.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FCC001GXI6F86@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Wed, 26 May 1999 11:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suncore.math.utah.edu (beebe@suncore.math.utah.edu [128.110.198.5]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA18461; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from beebe@localhost) by suncore.math.utah.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA08736; Wed, 26 May 1999 09:07:45 -0600 (MDT) X-URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:07:45 -0600 (MDT) From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" Subject: bibparse-1.04 released To: tex-archive@math.utah.edu, tex-implementors@ams.org Cc: beebe@math.utah.edu, "David B. Thompson" , opbibtex@cs.stanford.edu, Greg Ward , Alexander Holt , Rob MacLeod , "K. Garlock" , Mimi Burbank Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: X-US-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC, University of Utah, 155 S 1400 E RM 233, Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA" X-Telephone: +1 801 581 5254 X-FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 [If you are on the Cc: list, it is because my mail archives record discussion of bibparse with you sometime in the past 5 years.] I've just released version 1.04 of bibparse, which includes four tools for BibTeX bibliography processing: bibdup - check for duplicate abbreviations and entries in BibTeX bibliography data base files biblex - lexically analyze BibTeX bibliography data base files bibparse - verify a bibclean or biblex lexical token stream, or BibTeX files bibunlex - reconstruct a BibTeX bibliography data base file from bibclean or biblex lexical analysis output The major new features of this release are: * direct support in bibparse of BibTeX file input, as well as token streams from bibclean and biblex; * significantly enhanced GNU autoconfigure support, now correctly handling GNU Linux, and Microsoft Windows 9x and NT; * testing on more than 460 combinations of lex (AT&T lex and GNU flex) and yacc (AT&T yacc, Berkeley byacc, and GNU bison) implementations, and C and C++ compilers, on more than a dozen UNIX and Microsoft Windows architectures; * enhanced validation suite; * enhanced bibparse documentation now covers the BibTeX grammar, and performance; * binaries for IBM PC DOS and Microsoft Windows 9x and NT; * additional distribution formats (jar and shr). The entire BibTeX bibliography collections at http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/bibnet (300 BibTeX files with 233,189 entries, 4,748,094 lines, occupying 178MB of disk space) have been validated with the new bibparse release, and all future updates to those collections must pass bibparse before LaTeXing, BibTeXing, HTMLing, and installation. Web documentation for these programs, and pointers to their distribution files, can be found by following links from http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/software/bibtex-bibliography-tools.html#bibparse Other possibly relevant software can be found via pointers from http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/software/ The bibparse distribution is available in several formats directly at ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/bibparse-1.04.jar ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/bibparse-1.04.shr ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/bibparse-1.04.tar.gz ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/bibparse-1.04.zip ftp://ftp.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/bibparse-1.04.zoo Only one of these is needed at a given site; their contents are identical, and at least one of them should be usable on all major UNIX, Atari, Amiga, Microsoft Windows, IBM OS/2, and Compaq/DEC (Open)VMS platforms. I leave it up to someone else to deal with the Apple Macintosh. These distributions can be all be reached from http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table-b.html#bibparse-1.04 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - Center for Scientific Computing FAX: +1 801 585 1640, +1 801 581 4148 - - University of Utah Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu - - Department of Mathematics, 322 INSCC beebe@acm.org - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe@ieee.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6-Jul-1999 9:50:19-GMT,3155;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18953 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 03:50:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00F010J1ED@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 05:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00DJ10ICKR@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 05:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8EU2LC7K0016L9@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 05:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00F010HTDM@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 05:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nordnet.fr by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00DIX0HOKR@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 05:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 195.6.245.201 (gate9-201.nordnet.fr [195.6.245.201]) by smtp.nordnet.fr (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA28679 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:46:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:47:02 +0200 From: Yannis Haralambous Subject: Dviware To: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199907060946.LAA28679@smtp.nordnet.fr> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.3 (Bluto) Content-type: text/plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 I need to obtain relatively low resolution GIFs (or some other equivalent bitmap format) in batch mode out of DVI files, without going through heavy artillery such as (o)dvips and ghostscript (these DVI files use only PK fonts, and have no encapsulated images). It must be done as quickly and CPU-painlessly as possible, and under Linux. Any suggestion? In fact it would be nice to have Omega-compliance, but I can do without. I have thought of getting bitmaps out of xdvi display, but apparently this is not possible in batch mode. I would be grateful for any suggestion! Thanks in advance Yannis +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Yannis Haralambous, Ph.D. yannis@fluxus-virus.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | 187, rue Nationale fax : +33 (0)3.20.40.28.64 | | 59800 Lille, France tél. : +33 (0)6.07.98.16.26 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Visit the Omega home page!! http://www.ens.fr/omega | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ...pour distinguer l'extérieur d'un aquarium, mieux vaut n'être pas poisson ...the ball I threw while playing in the park has never reached the ground 6-Jul-1999 12:32:11-GMT,2860;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22366 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:32:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00J0185BSH@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00HX784C20@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 08:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8KKX4MQ80017XI@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 08:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00J0183TQY@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 08:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00HWZ83T20@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 08:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 111SMG-00061b-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:21:48 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 111SM6-0002yy-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:21:38 +0100 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:21:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Dviware In-reply-to: <199907060946.LAA28679@smtp.nordnet.fr> To: yannis@fluxus-virus.com Cc: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14209.59090.544088.566557@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199907060946.LAA28679@smtp.nordnet.fr> Yannis Haralambous writes: > I need to obtain relatively low resolution GIFs (or some other > equivalent bitmap format) in batch mode out of DVI files, without going > through heavy artillery such as (o)dvips and ghostscript (these DVI > files use only PK fonts, and have no encapsulated images). It must be > done as quickly and CPU-painlessly as possible, and under Linux. unless you are doing the job in real-time (and if so, what is the application), why do you regard dvips/gs as `heavy artillery'? they are on your system, they work, it would take you seconds to develop the script. Is the day you'll spending hacking together a direct dvi to bitmap worth it? for that day's lost income you could buy another 64Mb of memory.... emTeX used to have a dvitomsp, didn't it? shame there are no sources for that. sebastian 6-Jul-1999 14:30:04-GMT,3316;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25211 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:30:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00301DIUBG@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG0033BDI14H@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8OMZIXDS0019DT@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00301DHIAA@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nordnet.fr by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00331DHG4H@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 195.6.247.220 (gate4-220.nordnet.fr [195.6.247.220]) by smtp.nordnet.fr (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA04502; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:26:51 +0200 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:27:37 +0200 From: Yannis Haralambous Subject: Re: Dviware In-reply-to: <14209.59090.544088.566557@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> To: Sebastian Rahtz Cc: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199907061426.QAA04502@smtp.nordnet.fr> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.3 (Bluto) Content-type: text/plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 On 6/07/99 at 11:21, sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) wrote: > Yannis Haralambous writes: > > I need to obtain relatively low resolution GIFs (or some other > > equivalent bitmap format) in batch mode out of DVI files, without going > > through heavy artillery such as (o)dvips and ghostscript (these DVI > > files use only PK fonts, and have no encapsulated images). It must be > > done as quickly and CPU-painlessly as possible, and under Linux. > > unless you are doing the job in real-time (and if so, what is the > application), why do you regard dvips/gs as `heavy artillery'? they it _is_ real-time: dynamic HTML +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Yannis Haralambous, Ph.D. yannis@fluxus-virus.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | 187, rue Nationale fax : +33 (0)3.20.40.28.64 | | 59800 Lille, France tél. : +33 (0)6.07.98.16.26 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Visit the Omega home page!! http://www.ens.fr/omega | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ...pour distinguer l'extérieur d'un aquarium, mieux vaut n'être pas poisson ...the ball I threw while playing in the park has never reached the ground 6-Jul-1999 14:41:44-GMT,2643;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25560 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:41:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00401E35NT@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG003FUDZ04H@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8OZM06KW0018NM@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00401DYGKV@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG003FODYG4H@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 111WLf-0003jM-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:37:27 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 111WLf-0000Tm-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:37:27 +0100 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:37:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: Dviware In-reply-to: <199907061426.QAA04502@smtp.nordnet.fr> To: yannis@fluxus-virus.com Cc: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14210.8903.792619.844898@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <14209.59090.544088.566557@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <199907061426.QAA04502@smtp.nordnet.fr> Yannis Haralambous writes: > > unless you are doing the job in real-time (and if so, what is the > > application), why do you regard dvips/gs as `heavy artillery'? they > > it _is_ real-time: dynamic HTML ^^^^^^^^^^^ then you are doomed to fry in the fires of Hell forever. if its real-time, how come you can afford to fire up Omega? Sebastian PS I suppose dvi2xxx may help? are PCL files of any use to you? It _is_ remarkable, looking over the "dviware" section of CTAN, that there does not seem to be anything from dvi to graphic file. 6-Jul-1999 14:54:13-GMT,1943;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25900 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:54:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00401EPTZX@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG003UMEOP4H@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8PIRUNGW0019JW@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00401EO7XM@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vms.rhbnc.ac.uk (alpha1.rhbnc.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0FEG003U7EO64H@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk ([134.219.100.248]) by vms.rhbnc.ac.uk with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:52:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:50:46 +0100 From: Philip TAYLOR Subject: Re: DVI-ware To: tex-implementors@ams.org, yannis@fluxus-virus.com, sebastian.rahtz@oucs.ox.ac.uk Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <378217C6.A6D43BA0@Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk> Organization: RHBNC, University of London MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb] (WinNT; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: de,ga,es,ee,no,ca,ru,fr,pl Not on CTAN of course (wrong licence, I expect), but a decent search engine would find ftp://ftp.first.gmd.de/pub/gemmex/downloads/dvi2gif.tar ** Phil. 6-Jul-1999 15:05:50-GMT,2532;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26207 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:05:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00501F95YV@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG0036NF814H@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8PX50I8W0019M6@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00501F7I88@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail2.ox.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG0036HF7H4H@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 111Wlp-0000rk-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:04:29 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 111Wlp-0000aX-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:04:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:04:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: DVI-ware In-reply-to: <378217C6.A6D43BA0@Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk> To: P.Taylor@Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14210.10525.694466.970467@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <378217C6.A6D43BA0@Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk> Philip TAYLOR writes: > Not on CTAN of course (wrong licence, I expect), > but a decent search engine would find > > ftp://ftp.first.gmd.de/pub/gemmex/downloads/dvi2gif.tar > > ** Phil. > "dvi2gif is limited to the 16 basic fonts listed on p. 428 of The TeXbook." so not much use, really. though I suppose Yannis could decompose the structure and build his own I can understand why you wouldn't have read this, Phil, since I presume you do not unpack "tar" files on principle. sebastian 6-Jul-1999 15:08:41-GMT,2907;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26265 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:08:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00601FE1CU@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG003CGFAO4H@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8Q02ZAPS0015OE@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00601FA69Z@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG003CBFA54H@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Y-9W4ZXVHWLQKOV (p93.tc8.metro.MA.tiac.com [209.61.76.222]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25876; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:05:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:04:33 -0400 From: Y&Y Support Line Subject: Re: Dviware In-reply-to: <14210.8903.792619.844898@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> X-Sender: yandy@tiac.net To: Sebastian Rahtz , yannis@fluxus-virus.com Cc: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <4.2.0.58.19990706110304.01d38a20@tiac.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <199907061426.QAA04502@smtp.nordnet.fr> <14209.59090.544088.566557@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <199907061426.QAA04502@smtp.nordnet.fr> If the purpose is to show things on screen, then how about a font server (too bad you are on Linux :-) How abuot PDF instead of HTML? Maybe it will be easier to help if we have a better idea of what the overall picture is... At 03:37 PM 7/6/99 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >Yannis Haralambous writes: > > > unless you are doing the job in real-time (and if so, what is the > > > application), why do you regard dvips/gs as `heavy artillery'? they > > > > it _is_ real-time: dynamic HTML > ^^^^^^^^^^^ >then you are doomed to fry in the fires of Hell forever. > >if its real-time, how come you can afford to fire up Omega? > >Sebastian > >PS I suppose dvi2xxx may help? are PCL files of any use to you? >It _is_ remarkable, looking over the "dviware" section of CTAN, that >there does not seem to be anything from dvi to graphic file. mailto:support@YandY.com http://www.YandY.com (Y) 6-Jul-1999 15:14:57-GMT,1991;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26452 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:14:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00601FJLE2@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG003IWFEV4H@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8Q366A28001AFT@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00601FE1CU@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vms.rhbnc.ac.uk (alpha1.rhbnc.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0FEG003I4FD14H@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:07:49 +0100 From: "Philip Taylor (RHBNC) " Subject: Re: DVI-ware To: sebastian.rahtz@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Cc: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org, CHAA006@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Reply-to: P.Taylor@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk Message-id: <990706160749.22e75@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk> >> "dvi2gif is limited to the 16 basic fonts listed on p. 428 of The TeXbook." >> >> so not much use, really. though I suppose Yannis could decompose the >> structure and build his own >> >> I can understand why you wouldn't have read this, Phil, since I >> presume you do not unpack "tar" files on principle. No, the black sticky stuff is impossible to get off your fingers. But what's the problem? Surely no-one needs more than the 16 base fonts? ** P. 6-Jul-1999 15:25:06-GMT,2398;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26808 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00601G55K9@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00659FQTDO@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8QC06RO00014XX@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00601FQ2GQ@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail4.ox.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG0060VFJMDO@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ermine.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.13]) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 111Wss-0004Pc-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:11:46 +0100 Received: from spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.15.17] ident=rahtz) by ermine.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 111Wss-0001oZ-00; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:11:46 +0100 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:12:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Sebastian Rahtz Subject: Re: DVI-ware In-reply-to: <990706160749.22e75@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk> To: P.Taylor@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk Cc: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <14210.10963.138300.976697@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <990706160749.22e75@vms.rhbnc.ac.uk> "Philip Taylor (RHBNC) " writes: > >> presume you do not unpack "tar" files on principle. > > No, the black sticky stuff is impossible to get off your fingers. thats the "gz" is for > But what's the problem? Surely no-one needs more than the 16 base fonts? you forgot about the "tribes beyond the law" Sebastian 6-Jul-1999 16:56:04-GMT,3165;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29614 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:56:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00B01KC14O@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00B2FKBG1D@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8TRL168W0019IL@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00B01KAX3G@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.nordnet.fr by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00B1ZKAW1D@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 195.146.225.95 (gate6-95.nordnet.fr [195.146.225.95]) by smtp.nordnet.fr (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA09243; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:53:59 +0200 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:54:44 +0200 From: Yannis Haralambous Subject: Re: DVI-ware In-reply-to: <378217C6.A6D43BA0@Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk> To: Philip TAYLOR Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, sebastian.rahtz@oucs.ox.ac.uk Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199907061653.SAA09243@smtp.nordnet.fr> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.3 (Bluto) Content-type: text/plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 On 6/07/99 at 15:50, P.Taylor@Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk (Philip TAYLOR) wrote: > Not on CTAN of course (wrong licence, I expect), > but a decent search engine would find > > ftp://ftp.first.gmd.de/pub/gemmex/downloads/dvi2gif.tar > > ** Phil. > Thanks for the hint Phil! It works _perfectly_ for the CM** fonts, and I would like to expand it to other fonts. There is an *.h file for each font, but I don't know how to create that file. Does anyone has any idea who wrote that dvi2gif program?? Cheers Yannis +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Yannis Haralambous, Ph.D. yannis@fluxus-virus.com | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | 187, rue Nationale fax : +33 (0)3.20.40.28.64 | | 59800 Lille, France tél. : +33 (0)6.07.98.16.26 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Visit the Omega home page!! http://www.ens.fr/omega | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ...pour distinguer l'extérieur d'un aquarium, mieux vaut n'être pas poisson ...the ball I threw while playing in the park has never reached the ground 6-Jul-1999 17:04:26-GMT,2189;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29879 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:04:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00B01KQECB@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00BELKPB1D@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8U2W0EXC0016EI@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00B01KOTBM@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vms.rhbnc.ac.uk (alpha1.rhbnc.ac.uk) by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with SMTP id <0FEG00BEBKOS1D@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk ([134.219.100.248]) by vms.rhbnc.ac.uk with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:02:11 +0100 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:00:01 +0100 From: Philip TAYLOR Subject: Re: DVI-ware To: Yannis Haralambous Cc: tex-implementors@ams.org, sebastian.rahtz@oucs.ox.ac.uk Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <37823611.C96DF59C@Exch1.Rhbnc.Ac.Uk> Organization: RHBNC, University of London MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb] (WinNT; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: de,ga,es,ee,no,ca,ru,fr,pl References: <199907061653.SAA09243@smtp.nordnet.fr> > It works _perfectly_ for the CM** fonts, and I would like to expand it > to other fonts. There is an *.h file for each font, but I don't know > how to create that file. Does anyone has any idea who wrote that dvi2gif > program?? No, but I'd start by asking Matthias Anlauff, owner of the tree in which the file resides. ** Phil. 6-Jul-1999 17:08:25-GMT,2194;000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from sun06.ams.org (sun06.ams.org [130.44.1.6]) by csc-sun.math.utah.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29985 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:08:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00C01KW8FF@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axp14.ams.org by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00BL2KVK1D@sun06.ams.org> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sun06.ams.org by AXP14.AMS.ORG (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3824) with ESMTP id <01JD8U7JTJWG001B5Q@AXP14.AMS.ORG> for Beebe@Math.Utah.edu; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) id <0FEG00C01KV3EP@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from math.berkeley.edu by sun06.ams.org (PMDF V5.1-10 #27147) with ESMTP id <0FEG00BKNKV21D@sun06.ams.org> for tex-implementors@axp14.ams.org; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tashkent.berkeley.edu (root@tashkent.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.183.151]) by math.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27358; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from vojta@localhost) by tashkent.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id KAA01712; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:06:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:06:31 -0700 From: vojta@math.berkeley.edu (Paul Vojta) Subject: Re: Dviware To: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org, yannis@fluxus-virus.com Errors-to: tex-implementors-request@ams.org Message-id: <199907061706.KAA01712@tashkent.berkeley.edu> > Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:47:02 +0200 > From: Yannis Haralambous > Subject: Dviware > To: TEX-IMPLEMENTORS@ams.org > > I noticed that with the -debug 1 option you get bitmaps of characters: I need > something more global, for the complete page. Sorry, but in that case it's not possible, in batch mode at least. xdvi does not form the bitmap of the page in memory; it just sends the bitmaps for each glyph to the X server. --Paul Vojta, vojta@math.berkeley.edu