From Mailer-Daemon Sat Nov 2 15:00:03 1991 Flags: 000000000401 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB10025; Sat, 2 Nov 91 14:49:14 MST Date: Sat, 2 Nov 91 14:49:14 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111022149.AB10025@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts To: owner-tex-archive ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 iruccvax.ucc.ie: Connection refused by cunyvm.cuny.edu, will keep trying for 3 days 421 cunyvm.cuny.edu: Connection refused by cunyvm.cuny.edu, will keep trying for 3 days Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA10023; Sat, 2 Nov 91 14:49:14 MST Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA07338; Sat, 2 Nov 91 16:47:24 EST Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA08571; Sat, 2 Nov 91 16:43:53 EST Date: Sat, 2 Nov 91 16:43:53 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9111022143.AA08571@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: info-tex@shsu.BITNET, tex-archive@math.utah.edu, tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, texhax@cs.washington.edu, uktex@tex.ac.uk Subject: modes.mf version 0.8 released I have released version 0.8 of modes.mf. You can get it by anonymous ftp from ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/modes.mf You can also get it by email from George Greenwade's (thanks, George!) file server if you cannot ftp: mail fileserv@shsu.edu with a body of `sendme modes'. It is about 42K. This file is a collection of Metafont mode_def's (probably close to all of them in existence). It also makes common definitions for write-white printers and `special' information. This version has several changes: * new modes (for IBM, Epson, and other devices) * better values for the SparcPrinter, Printware 720IQ devices * CanonSX is no longer claimed to be write-white * mode_setup can be safely called more than once for write-white devices If you have mode_def's which are not listed below, or corrections to the existing ones, please send them to me. In particular, I would also appreciate getting definitive information on the Linotronic printers. (Notes in the file reflect the current state of confusion.) karl@cs.umb.edu mode_def AgfaFourZeroZero = % AGFA 400PS mode_def amiga = % Commodore Amiga mode_def AtariSLMEightZeroFour = % Atari ST SLM 804 printer mode_def AtariSMOneTwoFour = % Atari ST SM 124 screen mode_def aps = % Autologic APS-Micro5 mode_def ApsSixHi = % Autologic APS-Micro6 mode_def bitgraph = % BBN Bitgraph at 118dpi mode_def boise = % HP 2680A mode_def CanonCX = % Canon CX, SX, LBP-LX mode_def CanonLBPTen = % e.g., Symbolics LGP-10 mode_def ChelgraphIBX = % Chelgraph IBX mode_def CItohThreeOneZero = % CItoh 310 mode_def CItohEightFiveOneZero = % CItoh 8510A mode_def CompugraphicEightSixZeroZero = % Compugraphic 8600 mode_def crs = % Alphatype CRS mode_def DataDisc = % DataDisc mode_def DataDiscNew = % DataDisc with special aspect ratio mode_def dover = % Xerox Dover mode_def epsonlo = % Epson at 120dpi mode_def EpsonLQFiveZeroZeroMed = % Epson LQ-500, 360x180dpi mode_def EpsonLQFiveZeroZeroLo = % Epson LQ-500, 180x180dpi mode_def EpsonMXFX = % 9-pin Epson MX/FX family mode_def GThreefax = % 200 x 100dpi G3fax mode_def HPDeskJet = % HP DeskJet 500 mode_def IBMD = % IBM 38xx mode_def IBMFourTwoFiveZero = % IBM 4250 mode_def IBMFourTwoOneSix = % IBM 4216 mode_def IBMProPrinter = % IBM ProPrinter mode_def IBMSixOneFiveFour = % IBM 6154 display mode_def IBMSixSixSevenZero = % IBM 6670 (Sherpa) mode_def IBMThreeEightOneTwo = % IBM 3812 mode_def IBMThreeEightTwoZero = % IBM 3820 mode_def IBMEGA = % IBM VGA monitor mode_def IBMVGA = % IBM VGA monitor mode_def imagewriter = % Apple ImageWriter mode_def laserjetlo = % HP LaserJet at 150dpi mode_def LASevenFive = % DEC LA75 mode_def LinotypeOneZeroZeroLo = % Linotype Linotronic [13]00 at 635dpi mode_def LinotypeOneZeroZero = % Linotype Linotronic [13]00 at 1270dpi mode_def LinotypeThreeZeroZeroHi = % Linotype Linotronic 300 at 2540dpi mode_def LNZeroOne = % DEC LN01 mode_def lview = % Sigma L-View monitor mode_def MacMagnified = % Mac screens at magstep 1 mode_def MacTrueSize = % Mac screens at 72dpi mode_def NEC = % NEC mode_def NEChi = % NEC-P6 at 360x360dpi mode_def Newgen = % Newgen 400dpi mode_def NeXTprinter = % NeXT 400dpi mode_def NeXTscreen = % 100dpi NeXT monitor mode_def OCESixSevenFiveZeroPS = % OCE 6750PS mode_def okidata = % Okidata mode_def OneTwoZero = % e.g., high-resolution Suns mode_def PrintwareSevenTwoZeroIQ = % Printware 720IQ mode_def qms = % QMS (Xerox engine) mode_def RicohFourZeroEightZero = % e.g., the TI Omnilaser mode_def RicohLP = % e.g., the DEC LN03 mode_def SparcPrinter = % Sun SPARCprinter mode_def StarNLOneZero = % Star NL-10 mode_def sun = % Sun and BBN Bitgraph at 85dpi mode_def supre = % Ultre*setter at 2400dpi mode_def toshiba = % Toshiba 13XX, EpsonLQ mode_def ultre = % Ultre*setter at 1200dpi mode_def VarityperFiveZeroSixZeroW = % Varitype 5060W mode_def VarityperFourTwoZeroZero = % Varityper Phototypesetter 4200 B-P mode_def VarityperSixZeroZero = % Varityper Laser 600 mode_def VAXstation = % VAXstation monitor mode_def XeroxEightSevenNineZero = % Xerox 8790 or 4045 mode_def XeroxFourZeroFiveZero = % Xerox 4050 mode_def XeroxNineSevenZeroZero = % Xerox 9700 mode_def XeroxThreeSevenZeroZero = % Xerox 3700 mode_def help = % What modes are defined? From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Sun Nov 3 10:31:36 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA14748; Sun, 3 Nov 91 10:31:33 MST Date: Sun, 3 Nov 91 18:30:06 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111031730.AA07202@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA07202; Sun, 3 Nov 91 18:30:06 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA06515; Sun, 3 Nov 91 18:30:07 +0100 To: tex-fonts-request@math.utah.edu Subject: Please subscribe me! From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Thu Nov 21 04:04:04 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA14801; Thu, 21 Nov 91 04:03:58 MST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 12:03:47 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111211103.AA16283@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA16283; Thu, 21 Nov 91 12:03:47 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA00207; Thu, 21 Nov 91 12:03:41 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Subject: Proposed math coding scheme I received a copy of barbara's proposed extended TeX font encoding scheme for math fonts at the Nordic TUG meeting. Mostly it seems quite sensible, but I've got a few comments: a) Extra symbols. We could take the opportunity of issuing new fonts to plug some of the gaps in the current symbol set. I realise that most people will have their own pet symbols they're dying to introduce, but some of the standard theoretical CS symbols that are missing are: Dijkstra choice (often written as [\!]) Semantic brackets (often written as [\![ and ]\!]) With and par (ampersand and inverted ampersand) General least upper bound (\bigsqcap) Blackboard bold numerals \arrownot and \Arrownot, so that (for example) \arrownot\mapsto is visually compatible with \nrightarrow. in addition, my personal wish list would include: General parallel (\bigparallel) Interleaving (|\!|\!|) and general interleaving (\biginterleaving) Linear implied and iff ( o-- and o--o ) Lightning The building blocks to make \mapsfrom <-|, \Mapsto |=>, and \Mapsfrom <=| Lfloor, Rfloor, Lceil and Rceil (\lfloor\!\lfloor, etc.) Multiset brackets (usually written {| and |}) Arrows with triangles on the end: <|--, --|> and <|--|> Dutch bisimulation, which is an equals-like symbol: <--> ---- b) Digitization fixes. At the moment, many of the characters do not digitize symmetrically. The worst offenders are \oplus, \otimes, etc. which at 11pt on a CanonCX are egg-shaped and asymmetric. There also needs to be digitization hacks to make the pens that symbols are drawn with symmetric---for example \sqcup in cmsy10 for a CanonCX digitizes as: ** ** ** ** ** ** ******* ****** because the pen it was drawn with has the shape: ** * c) Font encoding. At the moment, there are two copies of the Greek lower case letters---is one of these going to become an upright Greek? Is there a font encoding for math italic? The black letter glyphs >From the Euler font seem to fit well enough with CMR that they should be included in one of the symbol fonts for CM---then the Euler math fonts could use the same encoding as the CM math fonts. Non-lining numerals really should have been in the text font encoding, but I suppose we're stuck with including them in the math encodings now. This means that the math fonts have to include: math numerals (lining and non-lining) text numerals (non-lining) italic numerals (non-lining) oblique numerals (non-lining) The other non-lining numerals (bold, typewriter, sans, etc) can come >From variant math fonts. Perhaps a more sensible suggestion would be that fonts with non-lining numerals should be variants, but this means a) *every* font is going to have to come in two versions---lining or non-lining. b) designers who specify both lining and non-lining digits in the same document are going to have problems. (And yes, this does happen---it's very common for folios and numerals in textual matter to be set non-lining, and footnote markers to be set lining.) This is the situation with Adobe fonts, and it is rather sad that we're probably going to be landed with it too. Sorry to carp on, but using mathematics is my livelihood, and I'd like to see TeX's excellent setting of mathematics get just that little bit better. Cheers, Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From BNB@VAX01.AMS.COM Thu Nov 21 08:17:06 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from VAX01.AMS.COM by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18742; Thu, 21 Nov 91 08:17:02 MST Date: Thu 21 Nov 91 10:18:17-EST From: bbeeton Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme To: jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Cc: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Message-Id: <690736697.0.BNB@MATH.AMS.COM> In-Reply-To: <9111211103.AA16283@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Mail-System-Version: i'd like to thank alan jeffrey for his suggestions. these are exactly the kinds of input i've been hoping for, but have received almost nothing so far. the discussion on 256-character fonts is taking place mainly on dcfont-l@dhdurz1, so i will forward this message there. (although there is a large overlap in the two groups, it's not complete, and i've just today received a message from someone who reads only dcfont-l wondering why there has been no traffic, and is it too late to make suggestions. the answer to the latter is "no"!) -- bb ------- From Mailer-Daemon Thu Nov 21 08:24:17 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB18744; Thu, 21 Nov 91 08:17:02 MST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 08:17:02 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111211517.AB18744@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from VAX01.AMS.COM by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18742; Thu, 21 Nov 91 08:17:02 MST Errors-To: beebe Date: Thu 21 Nov 91 10:18:17-EST From: bbeeton Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme To: jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Cc: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Message-Id: <690736697.0.BNB@MATH.AMS.COM> In-Reply-To: <9111211103.AA16283@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Mail-System-Version: i'd like to thank alan jeffrey for his suggestions. these are exactly the kinds of input i've been hoping for, but have received almost nothing so far. the discussion on 256-character fonts is taking place mainly on dcfont-l@dhdurz1, so i will forward this message there. (although there is a large overlap in the two groups, it's not complete, and i've just today received a message from someone who reads only dcfont-l wondering why there has been no traffic, and is it too late to make suggestions. the answer to the latter is "no"!) -- bb ------- From DHOSEK@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU Thu Nov 21 19:34:07 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from CBROWN.CLAREMONT.EDU by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA24347; Thu, 21 Nov 91 19:34:04 MST Received: from HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU by HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU (PMDF #11000) id <01GD7YAE5F2O91W8Y2@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>; Thu, 21 Nov 1991 18:32 PST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1991 18:32 PST From: Don Hosek Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme To: jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Cc: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Message-Id: <01GD7YAE5F2O91W8Y2@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se" X-Vms-Cc: IN%"tex-fonts@math.utah.edu" I would like to reinforce the proposal that non-lining figures be the standard form for figures in text fonts with lining figures being standard in math fonts. This would conform to typesetting practice fairly well. -dh From Mailer-Daemon Thu Nov 21 19:43:49 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB24349; Thu, 21 Nov 91 19:34:04 MST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 19:34:04 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111220234.AB24349@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 math.ams.com: Host MATH.AMS.COM is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from CBROWN.CLAREMONT.EDU by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA24347; Thu, 21 Nov 91 19:34:04 MST Errors-To: beebe Received: from HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU by HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU (PMDF #11000) id <01GD7YAE5F2O91W8Y2@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>; Thu, 21 Nov 1991 18:32 PST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1991 18:32 PST From: Don Hosek Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme To: jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Cc: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Message-Id: <01GD7YAE5F2O91W8Y2@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se" X-Vms-Cc: IN%"tex-fonts@math.utah.edu" I would like to reinforce the proposal that non-lining figures be the standard form for figures in text fonts with lining figures being standard in math fonts. This would conform to typesetting practice fairly well. -dh From Mailer-Daemon Thu Nov 21 04:14:20 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB14803; Thu, 21 Nov 91 04:03:58 MST Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 04:03:58 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111211103.AB14803@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA14801; Thu, 21 Nov 91 04:03:58 MST Errors-To: beebe Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 12:03:47 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111211103.AA16283@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA16283; Thu, 21 Nov 91 12:03:47 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA00207; Thu, 21 Nov 91 12:03:41 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Subject: Proposed math coding scheme I received a copy of barbara's proposed extended TeX font encoding scheme for math fonts at the Nordic TUG meeting. Mostly it seems quite sensible, but I've got a few comments: a) Extra symbols. We could take the opportunity of issuing new fonts to plug some of the gaps in the current symbol set. I realise that most people will have their own pet symbols they're dying to introduce, but some of the standard theoretical CS symbols that are missing are: Dijkstra choice (often written as [\!]) Semantic brackets (often written as [\![ and ]\!]) With and par (ampersand and inverted ampersand) General least upper bound (\bigsqcap) Blackboard bold numerals \arrownot and \Arrownot, so that (for example) \arrownot\mapsto is visually compatible with \nrightarrow. in addition, my personal wish list would include: General parallel (\bigparallel) Interleaving (|\!|\!|) and general interleaving (\biginterleaving) Linear implied and iff ( o-- and o--o ) Lightning The building blocks to make \mapsfrom <-|, \Mapsto |=>, and \Mapsfrom <=| Lfloor, Rfloor, Lceil and Rceil (\lfloor\!\lfloor, etc.) Multiset brackets (usually written {| and |}) Arrows with triangles on the end: <|--, --|> and <|--|> Dutch bisimulation, which is an equals-like symbol: <--> ---- b) Digitization fixes. At the moment, many of the characters do not digitize symmetrically. The worst offenders are \oplus, \otimes, etc. which at 11pt on a CanonCX are egg-shaped and asymmetric. There also needs to be digitization hacks to make the pens that symbols are drawn with symmetric---for example \sqcup in cmsy10 for a CanonCX digitizes as: ** ** ** ** ** ** ******* ****** because the pen it was drawn with has the shape: ** * c) Font encoding. At the moment, there are two copies of the Greek lower case letters---is one of these going to become an upright Greek? Is there a font encoding for math italic? The black letter glyphs >From the Euler font seem to fit well enough with CMR that they should be included in one of the symbol fonts for CM---then the Euler math fonts could use the same encoding as the CM math fonts. Non-lining numerals really should have been in the text font encoding, but I suppose we're stuck with including them in the math encodings now. This means that the math fonts have to include: math numerals (lining and non-lining) text numerals (non-lining) italic numerals (non-lining) oblique numerals (non-lining) The other non-lining numerals (bold, typewriter, sans, etc) can come >From variant math fonts. Perhaps a more sensible suggestion would be that fonts with non-lining numerals should be variants, but this means a) *every* font is going to have to come in two versions---lining or non-lining. b) designers who specify both lining and non-lining digits in the same document are going to have problems. (And yes, this does happen---it's very common for folios and numerals in textual matter to be set non-lining, and footnote markers to be set lining.) This is the situation with Adobe fonts, and it is rather sad that we're probably going to be landed with it too. Sorry to carp on, but using mathematics is my livelihood, and I'd like to see TeX's excellent setting of mathematics get just that little bit better. Cheers, Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From DLASER@vax.oxford.ac.uk Thu Nov 21 09:53:43 1991 Flags: 000000000011 Return-Path: Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB19735; Thu, 21 Nov 91 09:53:21 MST Message-Id: <9111211653.AB19735@math.utah.edu> Received: from vax.oxford.ac.uk by sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk via JANET with NIFTP id <14157-7@sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk>; Thu, 21 Nov 1991 14:45:56 +0000 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 91 14:44 GMT From: DLASER@vax.oxford.ac.uk To: TEX-FONTS-REQUEST <@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk:TEX-FONTS-REQUEST@MATH.UTAH.edu> Subject: subscribe Please add me to this mailing list - DLASER@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Fri Nov 22 06:26:28 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA28541; Fri, 22 Nov 91 06:25:36 MST Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:08 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111221325.AA18068@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA18068; Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:08 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA00302; Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:05 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l In-Reply-To: bbeeton's message of Thu 21 Nov 91 10:18:17-EST <690736697.0.BNB@MATH.AMS.COM> Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme Apologies for broadcasting this on two lists at once. Perhaps I should have sent my initial message to dcfonts-l instead. Oh well... Summarizing some off-line chatter, there seems to be three problems: 1. New symbols. Collecting new candidate symbols shouldn't be too hard---finding character positions for them will be the usual nightmare... I'll mail barbara with more details about my suggestions. 2. Lining vs non-lining numerals. This is something of a headache, since non-lining numerals are only in the math fonts for historical reasons. One sensible suggestion (from Don Hosek and Chris Rowley) is that the text fonts should have whichever numerals are considered appropriate by the designer, and that the math fonts should contain math digits (which will almost always be the lining digits for the text roman). Unfortunately, there is at least one exception to this rule, which is the Concrete text family with Euler math. In this case, the math digits have nothing to do with the text lining digits, so (for example) document styles that used math digits for footnote markers would be in trouble. There may be other examples where the math fonts bear little resemblance to the text fonts, so this scheme will break down---Jeremy Gibbons ran his thesis with Baskerville text and a variant CM humanist sans for mathematics. So, unfortunately, document style designers shouldn't always assume that the math font and the text font have anything to do with one another. In passing, this raises a side-issue---should we expect all document designs to be font-specific (in which case we can expect document designers to do the work of making sure the correct digits are used) or as font-independent as possible (so the same document should TeX as well as possible with different fonts)? 3. Math fonts. In chatting with Yannis Haralambous, I wondered whether we could classify math symbols as: Geometrics (such as \oplus, \bot, etc) which are relatively independent of the text font, and Humanists (such as \Gamma, \S, etc) which are very dependent on the text font. the idea being that Geometrics should be adaptable (by varying x-height, weight, etc.) to most fonts, whereas Humanists would have to be adapted for each text font. On further thought, we probably need Text Humanists (such as \S and \dagger) which are designed to blend with the text fonts, and Math Humanists (such as \Gamma and \emptyset) that should blend with the math fonts. The line between Geometrics and Humanists (sorry about misusing the terms by the way---all better suggestions welcome) is rather vague, and probably depends on the font. For example, [ is a Geometric in CMR, whereas in Monotype Baskerville it's a Humanist. There's also the problem of other letter-forms in mathematics. At a first guess, the following are reasonably common in mathematics setting: Roman, Italic, Sans, Typewriter, Upright Greek, Italic Greek, Geometric symbols, Humanist symbols, Black letter, Copperplate, Calligraphic, Open face, and all again in bold. At the moment, some of these (Roman, Italic, Sans and Typewriter) have their own text fonts, whereas the others are included in math fonts. Is there some way of sytematizing this? In an ideal world, perhaps they should all be full text fonts (or dingbat fonts, in the case of the symbols), and the math fonts should be VFs. But that sounds like a lot of work (although at the end of the day we'd also be able to TeX our wedding invitations in CMcopperplate and newspaper mastheads in CMRopen :-). Well, that should be enough to be going on with... Cheers, Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From Mailer-Daemon Fri Nov 22 06:32:08 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB28543; Fri, 22 Nov 91 06:25:36 MST Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 06:25:36 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111221325.AB28543@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA28541; Fri, 22 Nov 91 06:25:36 MST Errors-To: beebe Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:08 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111221325.AA18068@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA18068; Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:08 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA00302; Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:05 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l In-Reply-To: bbeeton's message of Thu 21 Nov 91 10:18:17-EST <690736697.0.BNB@MATH.AMS.COM> Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme Apologies for broadcasting this on two lists at once. Perhaps I should have sent my initial message to dcfonts-l instead. Oh well... Summarizing some off-line chatter, there seems to be three problems: 1. New symbols. Collecting new candidate symbols shouldn't be too hard---finding character positions for them will be the usual nightmare... I'll mail barbara with more details about my suggestions. 2. Lining vs non-lining numerals. This is something of a headache, since non-lining numerals are only in the math fonts for historical reasons. One sensible suggestion (from Don Hosek and Chris Rowley) is that the text fonts should have whichever numerals are considered appropriate by the designer, and that the math fonts should contain math digits (which will almost always be the lining digits for the text roman). Unfortunately, there is at least one exception to this rule, which is the Concrete text family with Euler math. In this case, the math digits have nothing to do with the text lining digits, so (for example) document styles that used math digits for footnote markers would be in trouble. There may be other examples where the math fonts bear little resemblance to the text fonts, so this scheme will break down---Jeremy Gibbons ran his thesis with Baskerville text and a variant CM humanist sans for mathematics. So, unfortunately, document style designers shouldn't always assume that the math font and the text font have anything to do with one another. In passing, this raises a side-issue---should we expect all document designs to be font-specific (in which case we can expect document designers to do the work of making sure the correct digits are used) or as font-independent as possible (so the same document should TeX as well as possible with different fonts)? 3. Math fonts. In chatting with Yannis Haralambous, I wondered whether we could classify math symbols as: Geometrics (such as \oplus, \bot, etc) which are relatively independent of the text font, and Humanists (such as \Gamma, \S, etc) which are very dependent on the text font. the idea being that Geometrics should be adaptable (by varying x-height, weight, etc.) to most fonts, whereas Humanists would have to be adapted for each text font. On further thought, we probably need Text Humanists (such as \S and \dagger) which are designed to blend with the text fonts, and Math Humanists (such as \Gamma and \emptyset) that should blend with the math fonts. The line between Geometrics and Humanists (sorry about misusing the terms by the way---all better suggestions welcome) is rather vague, and probably depends on the font. For example, [ is a Geometric in CMR, whereas in Monotype Baskerville it's a Humanist. There's also the problem of other letter-forms in mathematics. At a first guess, the following are reasonably common in mathematics setting: Roman, Italic, Sans, Typewriter, Upright Greek, Italic Greek, Geometric symbols, Humanist symbols, Black letter, Copperplate, Calligraphic, Open face, and all again in bold. At the moment, some of these (Roman, Italic, Sans and Typewriter) have their own text fonts, whereas the others are included in math fonts. Is there some way of sytematizing this? In an ideal world, perhaps they should all be full text fonts (or dingbat fonts, in the case of the symbols), and the math fonts should be VFs. But that sounds like a lot of work (although at the end of the day we'd also be able to TeX our wedding invitations in CMcopperplate and newspaper mastheads in CMRopen :-). Well, that should be enough to be going on with... Cheers, Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From Mailer-Daemon Fri Nov 22 09:50:36 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB29526; Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:50:27 MST Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:50:27 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111221650.AB29526@math.utah.edu> To: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "JOHNM" Unknown. 550 ... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from solitude.math.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA29524; Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:50:27 MST Date: Fri, 22 Nov 91 09:50:27 MST From: Nelson H. F. Beebe To: postmaster@afsc-bmo.af.mil Cc: beebe X-Us-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, South Physics, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112" X-Telephone: (801) 581-5254 X-Fax: (801) 581-4148 Subject: Need forwarding address Message-Id: Do you have a forwarding address for a user on afsc-bmo.af.mil with the login id johnm. He was added to the TeX-fonts list on 20-Feb-1991, but I never got a full name for him. ======================================================================== Nelson H.F. Beebe Center for Scientific Computing Department of Mathematics 220 South Physics Building University of Utah Salt Lake City, UT 84112 USA Tel: (801) 581-5254 FAX: (801) 581-4148 Internet: beebe@math.utah.edu ======================================================================== From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Mon Nov 25 07:36:20 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA19779; Mon, 25 Nov 91 07:36:12 MST Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 15:35:54 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111251435.AA15595@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA15595; Mon, 25 Nov 91 15:35:54 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA00521; Mon, 25 Nov 91 15:35:55 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l Subject: More on math, I'm afraid I thought a bit more about math font encodings at the weekend, and in particular what I said on Friday about using the math fonts as repositories for characters such as \dagger, \yen and lining numerals. In that mailing, I wondered about the effect of styles such as Concrete/Euler, where the math font bears no resembalence to the text font. In retrospect, I realize I was confusing two issues: a) the math font encoding, and b) the math fonts in a document style. There is no reason why the two have to be the same---we can have a math-encoded ccr, and use it for the lining digits, even if math is being set in Euler. So, a modest proposal... How about a font encoding similar to cmmi, containing: a) The cmmi glyphs, except with lining rather than non-lining digits, b) The humanist symbols from cmsy, msam and msbm, including \dagger, \yen, etc. for use outside mathematics, c) If there's room (ho ho), this might be a good place to put the caps and small caps, universal currency, and the other bits and bobs that didn't make it into the Cork encoding. Should Cyrillic or Hebrew letters used mathematically live here? Then each text font would have a Cork encoding (for text) and a math-encoding (for paragraph symbols, small caps, etc). For mathematics, the families used would be: 0. roman, math encoded. 1. italic, math encoded. 2. geometric symbol font. 3. extensions font. 4. a font containing open, black letter, calligraphic, and copperplate letter forms (this should ideally be a vf pointing to full text fonts, but that's probably quite far into the future). plus, optionally, bold, sans, and typewriter, math encoded. Chris Rowley (and barbara?) suggested that we needed a math encoding for every font, not just italic. Sounds like a good idea to me... Alan. From Mailer-Daemon Mon Nov 25 07:43:52 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB19781; Mon, 25 Nov 91 07:36:12 MST Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 07:36:12 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9111251436.AB19781@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 math.ams.com: Host MATH.AMS.COM is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 vax.oxford.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 Host columbiasc.ncr.com not found for mailer tcp. 550 gary.beihl@columbiasc.ncr.com... Host unknown Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA19779; Mon, 25 Nov 91 07:36:12 MST Errors-To: beebe Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 15:35:54 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111251435.AA15595@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA15595; Mon, 25 Nov 91 15:35:54 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA00521; Mon, 25 Nov 91 15:35:55 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l Subject: More on math, I'm afraid I thought a bit more about math font encodings at the weekend, and in particular what I said on Friday about using the math fonts as repositories for characters such as \dagger, \yen and lining numerals. In that mailing, I wondered about the effect of styles such as Concrete/Euler, where the math font bears no resembalence to the text font. In retrospect, I realize I was confusing two issues: a) the math font encoding, and b) the math fonts in a document style. There is no reason why the two have to be the same---we can have a math-encoded ccr, and use it for the lining digits, even if math is being set in Euler. So, a modest proposal... How about a font encoding similar to cmmi, containing: a) The cmmi glyphs, except with lining rather than non-lining digits, b) The humanist symbols from cmsy, msam and msbm, including \dagger, \yen, etc. for use outside mathematics, c) If there's room (ho ho), this might be a good place to put the caps and small caps, universal currency, and the other bits and bobs that didn't make it into the Cork encoding. Should Cyrillic or Hebrew letters used mathematically live here? Then each text font would have a Cork encoding (for text) and a math-encoding (for paragraph symbols, small caps, etc). For mathematics, the families used would be: 0. roman, math encoded. 1. italic, math encoded. 2. geometric symbol font. 3. extensions font. 4. a font containing open, black letter, calligraphic, and copperplate letter forms (this should ideally be a vf pointing to full text fonts, but that's probably quite far into the future). plus, optionally, bold, sans, and typewriter, math encoded. Chris Rowley (and barbara?) suggested that we needed a math encoding for every font, not just italic. Sounds like a good idea to me... Alan. From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Mon Nov 25 05:45:48 1991 Flags: 000000000011 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA19453; Mon, 25 Nov 91 05:45:45 MST Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 13:45:31 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9111251245.AA14250@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA14250; Mon, 25 Nov 91 13:45:31 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA00476; Mon, 25 Nov 91 13:45:33 +0100 To: tex-fonts-request@math.utah.edu Subject: Please subscribe me I sent a subscription request a couple of weeks ago, and haven't received anything! Does the tex-fonts mailer have a fancy check to make sure it doesn't send messages back to the sender, or am I not subscribed? Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From karl@cs.umb.edu Wed Dec 4 14:27:16 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA29800; Wed, 4 Dec 91 14:27:12 MST Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA18823; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:27:05 EST Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA00411; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9112042126.AA00411@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l In-Reply-To: Alan Jeffrey's message of Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:08 +0100 <9111221325.AA18068@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Subject: Proposed math coding scheme Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu Alan writes: should we expect all document designs to be font-specific (in which case we can expect document designers to do the work of making sure the correct digits are used) or as font-independent as possible (so the same document should TeX as well as possible with different fonts)? Fonts have to be specified in the (global) TeX document; but obviously the same *textual part* of the document (i.e., not the macros/style files) should be independent of the fonts used. What this means, as far as I can see, that the macro package designers have to 1) make it easy to change fonts, and 2) be sure that the usual accent and other commands -- \', \' and the like -- work for all fonts (or at least where at all reasonable). When the new math font encoding is published, I think it would be very useful if TeX control sequence names were given to each character. (Perhaps they already are; I still haven't been able to get a copy of the original proposal.) Likewise for the characters in the Cork encoding. For example, [ is a Geometric in CMR, whereas in Monotype Baskerville it's a Humanist. As you imply, Humanist-Geometric is a continuum, not a dichotomy, and along several dimensions. For the best typography, surely every character is a Humanist. For a short proof of some ad that no one is going to see but me, every character might be a Geometric. b) The humanist symbols from cmsy, msam and msbm, including \dagger, \yen, etc. for use outside mathematics, c) If there's room (ho ho), this might be a good place to put the caps and small caps, universal currency, and the other bits and bobs that didn't make it into the Cork encoding. Should Cyrillic or Hebrew letters used mathematically live here? I don't understand why we want to put any non-mathematical characters into the math fonts. From a font designer's point of view, s/he is more than likely only interested in creating a math font or a text font. Very few families will have both. From a document designer's point of view, it is simplest and cleanest if the ``math stuff'' is well-separated from the ``text stuff'' -- since that's the way the existing fonts are going to be arranged. There aren't nearly enough positions in a 256-character encoding to specify even all the useful math characters. Why even consider adding the bullet and dagger and so forth? (I don't mean to sound harsh, I just don't get it yet.) Chris Rowley (and barbara?) suggested that we needed a math encoding for every font, not just italic. As you say, also, I think. ``Math fonts are just like text fonts, only different.'' That is, there's no reason to try to cram upright and italic and bold and ... all into one font. People may well want all those variants -- at least whichever of them they can find. From Mailer-Daemon Wed Dec 4 14:36:29 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB29802; Wed, 4 Dec 91 14:27:12 MST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 14:27:12 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9112042127.AB29802@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 vax.oxford.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 Host columbiasc.ncr.com not found for mailer tcp. 550 gary.beihl@columbiasc.ncr.com... Host unknown Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA29800; Wed, 4 Dec 91 14:27:12 MST Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA18823; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:27:05 EST Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA00411; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9112042126.AA00411@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l In-Reply-To: Alan Jeffrey's message of Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:08 +0100 <9111221325.AA18068@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Subject: Proposed math coding scheme Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu Alan writes: should we expect all document designs to be font-specific (in which case we can expect document designers to do the work of making sure the correct digits are used) or as font-independent as possible (so the same document should TeX as well as possible with different fonts)? Fonts have to be specified in the (global) TeX document; but obviously the same *textual part* of the document (i.e., not the macros/style files) should be independent of the fonts used. What this means, as far as I can see, that the macro package designers have to 1) make it easy to change fonts, and 2) be sure that the usual accent and other commands -- \', \' and the like -- work for all fonts (or at least where at all reasonable). When the new math font encoding is published, I think it would be very useful if TeX control sequence names were given to each character. (Perhaps they already are; I still haven't been able to get a copy of the original proposal.) Likewise for the characters in the Cork encoding. For example, [ is a Geometric in CMR, whereas in Monotype Baskerville it's a Humanist. As you imply, Humanist-Geometric is a continuum, not a dichotomy, and along several dimensions. For the best typography, surely every character is a Humanist. For a short proof of some ad that no one is going to see but me, every character might be a Geometric. b) The humanist symbols from cmsy, msam and msbm, including \dagger, \yen, etc. for use outside mathematics, c) If there's room (ho ho), this might be a good place to put the caps and small caps, universal currency, and the other bits and bobs that didn't make it into the Cork encoding. Should Cyrillic or Hebrew letters used mathematically live here? I don't understand why we want to put any non-mathematical characters into the math fonts. From a font designer's point of view, s/he is more than likely only interested in creating a math font or a text font. Very few families will have both. From a document designer's point of view, it is simplest and cleanest if the ``math stuff'' is well-separated from the ``text stuff'' -- since that's the way the existing fonts are going to be arranged. There aren't nearly enough positions in a 256-character encoding to specify even all the useful math characters. Why even consider adding the bullet and dagger and so forth? (I don't mean to sound harsh, I just don't get it yet.) Chris Rowley (and barbara?) suggested that we needed a math encoding for every font, not just italic. As you say, also, I think. ``Math fonts are just like text fonts, only different.'' That is, there's no reason to try to cram upright and italic and bold and ... all into one font. People may well want all those variants -- at least whichever of them they can find. From karl@cs.umb.edu Wed Dec 4 14:35:25 1991 Flags: 000000000005 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA29869; Wed, 4 Dec 91 14:35:21 MST Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA19146; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:35:13 EST Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA00455; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:35:10 EST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:35:10 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9112042135.AA00455@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts-request@math.utah.edu Subject: [Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM: Returned mail: Service unavailable] Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu Neenie is no more? Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 13:32:06 PST From: Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable To: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to snail: >>> RCPT To: <<< 554 ... Unknown host : metamarks 554 ... Service unavailable ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from math.utah.edu (csc-sun.math.utah.edu) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12062; Wed, 4 Dec 91 13:32:06 PST Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA29800; Wed, 4 Dec 91 14:27:12 MST Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA18823; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:27:05 EST Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA00411; Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9112042126.AA00411@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l In-Reply-To: Alan Jeffrey's message of Fri, 22 Nov 91 14:25:08 +0100 <9111221325.AA18068@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Subject: Proposed math coding scheme Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu Alan writes: should we expect all document designs to be font-specific (in which case we can expect document designers to do the work of making sure the correct digits are used) or as font-independent as possible (so the same document should TeX as well as possible with different fonts)? Fonts have to be specified in the (global) TeX document; but obviously the same *textual part* of the document (i.e., not the macros/style files) should be independent of the fonts used. What this means, as far as I can see, that the macro package designers have to 1) make it easy to change fonts, and 2) be sure that the usual accent and other commands -- \', \' and the like -- work for all fonts (or at least where at all reasonable). When the new math font encoding is published, I think it would be very useful if TeX control sequence names were given to each character. (Perhaps they already are; I still haven't been able to get a copy of the original proposal.) Likewise for the characters in the Cork encoding. For example, [ is a Geometric in CMR, whereas in Monotype Baskerville it's a Humanist. As you imply, Humanist-Geometric is a continuum, not a dichotomy, and along several dimensions. For the best typography, surely every character is a Humanist. For a short proof of some ad that no one is going to see but me, every character might be a Geometric. b) The humanist symbols from cmsy, msam and msbm, including \dagger, \yen, etc. for use outside mathematics, c) If there's room (ho ho), this might be a good place to put the caps and small caps, universal currency, and the other bits and bobs that didn't make it into the Cork encoding. Should Cyrillic or Hebrew letters used mathematically live here? I don't understand why we want to put any non-mathematical characters into the math fonts. From a font designer's point of view, s/he is more than likely only interested in creating a math font or a text font. Very few families will have both. From a document designer's point of view, it is simplest and cleanest if the ``math stuff'' is well-separated from the ``text stuff'' -- since that's the way the existing fonts are going to be arranged. There aren't nearly enough positions in a 256-character encoding to specify even all the useful math characters. Why even consider adding the bullet and dagger and so forth? (I don't mean to sound harsh, I just don't get it yet.) Chris Rowley (and barbara?) suggested that we needed a math encoding for every font, not just italic. As you say, also, I think. ``Math fonts are just like text fonts, only different.'' That is, there's no reason to try to cram upright and italic and bold and ... all into one font. People may well want all those variants -- at least whichever of them they can find. From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Thu Dec 5 06:55:04 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA06483; Thu, 5 Dec 91 06:54:55 MST Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 14:54:39 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9112051354.AA14986@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA14986; Thu, 5 Dec 91 14:54:39 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA01676; Thu, 5 Dec 91 14:54:37 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l In-Reply-To: Karl Berry's message of Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST <9112042126.AA00411@claude.cs.umb.edu> Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme >Karl Berry writes: >As you imply, Humanist-Geometric is a continuum, not a dichotomy, and >along several dimensions. Very true unfortunately, but politics and font encodings are the art of the possible... There are two fonts which contain non-extensible math symbols: currently these are cmsy and cmmi, and it's pretty arbitrary which glyph is in which font. I'm not suggesting the Humanist/Geometric divide is a platonic division of glyphs, but a useful hack to make life slightly easier for font designers: a geometric CM symbol font should be adaptable for use with other fonts. >I don't understand why we want to put any non-mathematical characters >into the math fonts. Neither do I, but we have to find somewhere to put glyphs such as \dagger, \P, etc. Either we put them in a separate font, containing 71 glyphs (29 greek + 23 Greek + 10 alt. numerals + 3 music + 8 from cmsy) or we cram them into the math fonts (the Greek and numerals need to be in math anyway). I'm a bit worried about the amount of space math encoded character fonts would take up, without every text font having an extension font. >There aren't nearly enough positions in a 256-character encoding to >specify even all the useful math characters. Why even consider adding >the bullet and dagger and so forth? I agree totally---but these characters aren't in the Cork encoding, and we need to find homes for them. Either they should be in the math fonts (the current messy solution) or in a separate encoding (eating up even more font memory). Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From Mailer-Daemon Thu Dec 5 07:02:16 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB06485; Thu, 5 Dec 91 06:54:55 MST Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 06:54:55 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9112051354.AB06485@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 Host columbiasc.ncr.com not found for mailer tcp. 550 gary.beihl@columbiasc.ncr.com... Host unknown Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA06483; Thu, 5 Dec 91 06:54:55 MST Errors-To: beebe Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 14:54:39 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9112051354.AA14986@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA14986; Thu, 5 Dec 91 14:54:39 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA01676; Thu, 5 Dec 91 14:54:37 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dhdurz1!dcfont-l In-Reply-To: Karl Berry's message of Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:26:57 EST <9112042126.AA00411@claude.cs.umb.edu> Subject: Re: Proposed math coding scheme >Karl Berry writes: >As you imply, Humanist-Geometric is a continuum, not a dichotomy, and >along several dimensions. Very true unfortunately, but politics and font encodings are the art of the possible... There are two fonts which contain non-extensible math symbols: currently these are cmsy and cmmi, and it's pretty arbitrary which glyph is in which font. I'm not suggesting the Humanist/Geometric divide is a platonic division of glyphs, but a useful hack to make life slightly easier for font designers: a geometric CM symbol font should be adaptable for use with other fonts. >I don't understand why we want to put any non-mathematical characters >into the math fonts. Neither do I, but we have to find somewhere to put glyphs such as \dagger, \P, etc. Either we put them in a separate font, containing 71 glyphs (29 greek + 23 Greek + 10 alt. numerals + 3 music + 8 from cmsy) or we cram them into the math fonts (the Greek and numerals need to be in math anyway). I'm a bit worried about the amount of space math encoded character fonts would take up, without every text font having an extension font. >There aren't nearly enough positions in a 256-character encoding to >specify even all the useful math characters. Why even consider adding >the bullet and dagger and so forth? I agree totally---but these characters aren't in the Cork encoding, and we need to find homes for them. Either they should be in the math fonts (the current messy solution) or in a separate encoding (eating up even more font memory). Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From karl@cs.umb.edu Thu Dec 5 10:49:42 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA07400; Thu, 5 Dec 91 10:49:39 MST Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA12896; Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:34 EST Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA01994; Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:32 EST Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:32 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9112051749.AA01994@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Subject: text chars in math fonts I like the idea of a second text ``complement'' font more than sticking text characters into the math fonts. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear in my previous message. I wonder if there is some way to modify TeX so that it doesn't store all of the TFM file when it opens the font, instead loading the characters on demand. This would be a user-invisible change, as far as I could tell. Then the restricted font memory wouldn't be a problem. From Mailer-Daemon Thu Dec 5 11:00:30 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB07402; Thu, 5 Dec 91 10:49:39 MST Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 10:49:39 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9112051749.AB07402@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 ymir.claremont.edu: Host ymir.claremont.edu is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 vax.oxford.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 Host columbiasc.ncr.com not found for mailer tcp. 550 gary.beihl@columbiasc.ncr.com... Host unknown Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 cl.cam.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA07400; Thu, 5 Dec 91 10:49:39 MST Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA12896; Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:34 EST Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA01994; Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:32 EST Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:32 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9112051749.AA01994@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Subject: text chars in math fonts I like the idea of a second text ``complement'' font more than sticking text characters into the math fonts. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear in my previous message. I wonder if there is some way to modify TeX so that it doesn't store all of the TFM file when it opens the font, instead loading the characters on demand. This would be a user-invisible change, as far as I could tell. Then the restricted font memory wouldn't be a problem. From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Fri Dec 6 06:40:19 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA13878; Fri, 6 Dec 91 06:40:12 MST Date: Fri, 6 Dec 91 14:39:51 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9112061339.AA28494@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA28494; Fri, 6 Dec 91 14:39:51 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA01806; Fri, 6 Dec 91 14:39:50 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu In-Reply-To: Karl Berry's message of Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:32 EST <9112051749.AA01994@claude.cs.umb.edu> Subject: Re: text chars in math fonts >I like the idea of a second text ``complement'' font more than >sticking text characters into the math fonts. I'm sorry I didn't >make that clear in my previous message. How many complementary characters are there that wouldn't be required in math mode? I've seen \dagger and \ddagger used this way (as binary functors in category theory, if anyone's interested) and I'm sure that all the other glyphs from cmmi and cmsy have been used in mathematics at some point. In retrospect, I realized that small caps need to be in a separate Cork-encoded font, since the large caps from c&sc may need to be letterspaced differently from the caps from the text font, and c&sc should have the full range of accents from the Cork encoding. (As a side issue, would it be possible to include c&sc in the NFSS in such a way that italic or oblique c&sc were selectable? For example, \section{The Warsaw Pact and {\sc nato}} might generate bold c&sc `NATO' in the A heading, and italic c&sc `NATO' in the running head.) Any complementary glyphs that are used in math mode (and for upwards compatibliity, that means all of cmmi, cmsy, msam and msbm) should be in a math font. If there aren't many other glyphs, we might as well put them all in a math font and be done with it. Messy, but probably unavoidable because of memory limitations and upwards compatiblity. >I wonder if there is some way to modify TeX so that it doesn't >store all of the TFM file when it opens the font, instead loading >the characters on demand. The problem with this is that it would require a disk access every time the user requested a previously unseen character, which would probably be unacceptably slow. One alternative would be for TeX to support dynamic font loading. This can almost be coded in TeX (for example, in the NFSS) but math fonts have to be loaded in advance, since there's no way to predict if a font has been referenced by a \mathchardef. At least I don't think there is... dynamic font loading is something of a black art. Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From Mailer-Daemon Fri Dec 6 06:47:37 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB13880; Fri, 6 Dec 91 06:40:12 MST Date: Fri, 6 Dec 91 06:40:12 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9112061340.AB13880@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 vax.oxford.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 Host columbiasc.ncr.com not found for mailer tcp. 550 gary.beihl@columbiasc.ncr.com... Host unknown Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 ecs.southampton.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA13878; Fri, 6 Dec 91 06:40:12 MST Errors-To: beebe Date: Fri, 6 Dec 91 14:39:51 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9112061339.AA28494@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA28494; Fri, 6 Dec 91 14:39:51 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA01806; Fri, 6 Dec 91 14:39:50 +0100 To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu In-Reply-To: Karl Berry's message of Thu, 5 Dec 91 12:49:32 EST <9112051749.AA01994@claude.cs.umb.edu> Subject: Re: text chars in math fonts >I like the idea of a second text ``complement'' font more than >sticking text characters into the math fonts. I'm sorry I didn't >make that clear in my previous message. How many complementary characters are there that wouldn't be required in math mode? I've seen \dagger and \ddagger used this way (as binary functors in category theory, if anyone's interested) and I'm sure that all the other glyphs from cmmi and cmsy have been used in mathematics at some point. In retrospect, I realized that small caps need to be in a separate Cork-encoded font, since the large caps from c&sc may need to be letterspaced differently from the caps from the text font, and c&sc should have the full range of accents from the Cork encoding. (As a side issue, would it be possible to include c&sc in the NFSS in such a way that italic or oblique c&sc were selectable? For example, \section{The Warsaw Pact and {\sc nato}} might generate bold c&sc `NATO' in the A heading, and italic c&sc `NATO' in the running head.) Any complementary glyphs that are used in math mode (and for upwards compatibliity, that means all of cmmi, cmsy, msam and msbm) should be in a math font. If there aren't many other glyphs, we might as well put them all in a math font and be done with it. Messy, but probably unavoidable because of memory limitations and upwards compatiblity. >I wonder if there is some way to modify TeX so that it doesn't >store all of the TFM file when it opens the font, instead loading >the characters on demand. The problem with this is that it would require a disk access every time the user requested a previously unseen character, which would probably be unacceptably slow. One alternative would be for TeX to support dynamic font loading. This can almost be coded in TeX (for example, in the NFSS) but math fonts have to be loaded in advance, since there's no way to predict if a font has been referenced by a \mathchardef. At least I don't think there is... dynamic font loading is something of a black art. Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden From jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Fri Dec 20 07:49:20 1991 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from animal.cs.chalmers.se ([129.16.225.66]) by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA29612; Fri, 20 Dec 91 07:49:17 MST Date: Fri, 20 Dec 91 15:47:32 +0100 From: Alan Jeffrey Message-Id: <9112201447.AA19511@animal.cs.chalmers.se> Received: from vittra38.cs.chalmers.se by animal.cs.chalmers.se id AA19511; Fri, 20 Dec 91 15:47:32 +0100 Received: by vittra38 id AA03062; Fri, 20 Dec 91 15:47:29 +0100 To: u89cej@ecs.ox.ac.uk, sfbt@castle.ed.ac.uk, pdc@prg.ox.ac.uk, mmac@vax.ox.ac.uk, nt@star.ast.man.ac.uk, david@gmdzi.gmd.de, jeremy@cs.aukuni.ac.nz, jdavies@prg.ox.ac.uk, dmj@prg.ox.ac.uk, sas@prg.ox.ac.uk, matthewh@cogs.sussex.ac.uk, ajhjj%cunyvm.bitnet@searn.sunet.se, awr@prg.ox.ac.uk, cad173s@cranfield.ac.uk, mzk@le.ac.uk, josb@cwi.nl, m.stannet@dcs.sheffield.ac.uk, chls18@vaxe.strath.ac.uk, bnb@math.ams.com, A.G.KEEN@manchester.ac.uk, yannis%FRCITL81.BITNET@SEARN.SUNET.SE, jeremy@stat.washington.edu, tex-fonts-request@math.utah.edu, maureen.parker@prg.ox.ac.uk, pmg@cs.chalmers.se Subject: Moving house, physically and electronically Dear all, This is the last piece of email I'll be sending from this account. As of 1 Jan, I'll be starting work at the University of Sussex: CSAI University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QH UK alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk Best wishes for the new year, Alan. WAS: Alan Jeffrey Tel: +46 31 72 10 59 jeffrey@cs.chalmers.se Department of Computer Sciences, Chalmers University, Gothenburg, Sweden IS NOW: Alan Jeffrey Tel: +44 273 ??? ??? alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk CSAI, University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9QH, United Kingdom From jmr@nada.kth.se Tue Jan 7 11:21:37 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from nada.kth.se (cyklop.nada.kth.se) by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA28865; Tue, 7 Jan 92 11:21:32 MST Received: by nada.kth.se (5.61-bind 1.4+ida/nada-mx-1.0) id AA10142; Tue, 7 Jan 92 19:21:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 19:21:29 +0100 From: Jan Michael Rynning To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dcfont-l@dhdurz1.bitnet Subject: What should go into \textfont1? Message-Id: (I apologize for sending this to both lists. I'm not on dcfonts-l myself. Maybe I should be.) At the European TeX Meeting in Paris last year Mike Spivak said that it's important to put Latin and Greek math italic letters and certain symbols into the same font, so we can kern them. The experiments I have done recently confirm that this is indeed very important. I have typeset a number of test pages using Linotype Times fonts with Latin and Greek letters. The typesetting TeX normally does with CM fonts is ``sparse''---there's whitespace between most of the glyphs. The typesetting I'm trying to imitate with Times fonts is ``dense''--- the letters are close together and there's little or no whitespace around the operators (in text mode there's no whitespace around the operators; in display mode there's 3mu on each side of the relational operators). Dense math typesetting makes greater demands on spacing than does sparse math typesetting. I shall give two examples of problems I have run into, explain how I solved them (if you have a better solution, please let me know) and what conclusions we may draw from that. Problem 1: There are six letters in the Times fonts which extend so far to the left that they run into the left parenthesis: $(f)$, $(j)$, $(p)$, $(y)$, $(\beta)$, and $(\mu)$. Solution: Increase the left sidebearing of those letters. Side-effect: Pairs of letters like $d\beta$ become separated by whitespace. That really looks bad. Solution: Kern all letters to those six to compensate for the increased side- bearing. Conclusion: Latin and Greek math italic letters should be in the same font, so that we can kern them. Problem 2: About half of the letters require an italic correction, to stop them from running into the superscripts in expressions like $f^0$. I have seen no such problem with the subscripts. Solution: Add enough italic correction to those letters. Side-effect: Expressions like $f(x)$ look strange, because the italic correction generates whitespace between the $f$ and the left parenthesis. Solution: Add a left parenthesis to the font. Add kerning between the letters which require it and the left parenthesis. Make TeX use this left parenthesis rather than the one from \textfont0: \mathcode`\(="41xx. Conclusion: There is more than letters which needs to be in the font, so that we can kern it. Jan Michael Rynning Department of Numerical Analysis Internet: jmr@nada.kth.se and Computing Science UUCP: {uunet,...}!nada.kth.se!jmr Royal Institute of Technology BITNET: jmr@sekth S-100 44 Stockholm Voice: +46-8-7906288 Sweden Fax: +46-8-7900930 From jmr@nada.kth.se Tue Jan 7 11:35:05 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from nada.kth.se (cyklop.nada.kth.se) by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA28972; Tue, 7 Jan 92 11:35:01 MST Received: by nada.kth.se (5.61-bind 1.4+ida/nada-mx-1.0) id AA10586; Tue, 7 Jan 92 19:34:59 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 19:34:59 +0100 From: Jan Michael Rynning To: tex-fonts-request@math.utah.edu Subject: [Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM (Mail Delivery Subsystem) : Returned mail: Service unavailable ] Message-Id: Maybe you should remove nb%metamarks@Sun.COM from the tex-fonts mailinglist. --------------- Received: from Sun.COM by nada.kth.se (5.61-bind 1.4+ida/nada-mx-1.0) id AA10364; Tue, 7 Jan 92 19:28:14 +0100 Received: by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15270; Tue, 7 Jan 92 10:28:05 PST Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 10:28:05 PST From: Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable Message-Id: <9201071828.AA15270@Sun.COM> To: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to snail: >>> RCPT To: <<< 554 ... Unknown host : metamarks 554 ... Service unavailable ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from math.utah.edu (csc-sun.math.utah.edu) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15219; Tue, 7 Jan 92 10:28:05 PST Received: from nada.kth.se (cyklop.nada.kth.se) by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA28865; Tue, 7 Jan 92 11:21:32 MST Received: by nada.kth.se (5.61-bind 1.4+ida/nada-mx-1.0) id AA10142; Tue, 7 Jan 92 19:21:29 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 92 19:21:29 +0100 From: Jan Michael Rynning To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, dcfont-l@dhdurz1.bitnet Subject: What should go into \textfont1? Message-Id: (I apologize for sending this to both lists. I'm not on dcfonts-l myself. Maybe I should be.) At the European TeX Meeting in Paris last year Mike Spivak said that it's important to put Latin and Greek math italic letters and certain symbols into the same font, so we can kern them. The experiments I have done recently confirm that this is indeed very important. I have typeset a number of test pages using Linotype Times fonts with Latin and Greek letters. The typesetting TeX normally does with CM fonts is ``sparse''---there's whitespace between most of the glyphs. The typesetting I'm trying to imitate with Times fonts is ``dense''--- the letters are close together and there's little or no whitespace around the operators (in text mode there's no whitespace around the operators; in display mode there's 3mu on each side of the relational operators). Dense math typesetting makes greater demands on spacing than does sparse math typesetting. I shall give two examples of problems I have run into, explain how I solved them (if you have a better solution, please let me know) and what conclusions we may draw from that. Problem 1: There are six letters in the Times fonts which extend so far to the left that they run into the left parenthesis: $(f)$, $(j)$, $(p)$, $(y)$, $(\beta)$, and $(\mu)$. Solution: Increase the left sidebearing of those letters. Side-effect: Pairs of letters like $d\beta$ become separated by whitespace. That really looks bad. Solution: Kern all letters to those six to compensate for the increased side- bearing. Conclusion: Latin and Greek math italic letters should be in the same font, so that we can kern them. Problem 2: About half of the letters require an italic correction, to stop them from running into the superscripts in expressions like $f^0$. I have seen no such problem with the subscripts. Solution: Add enough italic correction to those letters. Side-effect: Expressions like $f(x)$ look strange, because the italic correction generates whitespace between the $f$ and the left parenthesis. Solution: Add a left parenthesis to the font. Add kerning between the letters which require it and the left parenthesis. Make TeX use this left parenthesis rather than the one from \textfont0: \mathcode`\(="41xx. Conclusion: There is more than letters which needs to be in the font, so that we can kern it. Jan Michael Rynning Department of Numerical Analysis Internet: jmr@nada.kth.se and Computing Science UUCP: {uunet,...}!nada.kth.se!jmr Royal Institute of Technology BITNET: jmr@sekth S-100 44 Stockholm Voice: +46-8-7906288 Sweden Fax: +46-8-7900930 From @syma.sussex.ac.uk:alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk Mon Jan 13 17:45:42 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: <@syma.sussex.ac.uk:alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk> Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18162; Mon, 13 Jan 92 17:45:27 MST Received: from syma.sussex.ac.uk by sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk via JANET with NIFTP id <19186-0@sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk>; Mon, 13 Jan 1992 17:20:17 +0000 Received: from csrj by syma.sussex.ac.uk; Mon, 13 Jan 92 17:24:37 GMT Message-Id: <8901.9201131723@csrj.cogs.susx.ac.uk> From: Alan Jeffrey Date: Mon, 13 Jan 92 17:23:18 GMT To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Subject: What should go into \textfont1 Jan Michael Rynning made some sensible comments about which characters should be in \textfont1, in particular that Greek, Latin, and punctuation should all be in it. The only problem is that this contradicts the suggestion aired here earlier that each font (roman, italic, bold, etc.) should have its own math encoding. Under Jan's scheme, `math italic' would contain at least: italic Latin, roman upper Greek, italic lower Greek, roman numerals, and roman punctuation. In the alternate scheme, the math italic font would contain italic Latin, italic Greek, italic numerals and italic punctuation, and the math roman font would contain the same in roman. This presents us with a problem: one scheme allows the LaTeX user to say \(\rm\bf\sigma\) and get a roman bold sigma, but the other produces better spacing. Should a font standard aim to support logical markup, or beautiful typesetting? The answer should be `both', which means that in practice the answer is probably `compromise'... Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +44 273 606755 x 3238 alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk School of Cognitive and Computer Sciences, Sussex Univ., Brighton BN1 9QH, UK. From karl@cs.umb.edu Sun Jan 19 12:09:16 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05144; Sun, 19 Jan 92 12:09:14 MST Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA27233; Sun, 19 Jan 1992 14:09:11 -0500 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA02899; Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9201191909.AA02899@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu In-Reply-To: Alan Jeffrey's message of Mon, 13 Jan 92 17:23:18 GMT <8901.9201131723@csrj.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Subject: What should go into \textfont1 Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu This presents us with a problem: one scheme allows the LaTeX user to say \(\rm\bf\sigma\) and get a roman bold sigma, but the other produces better spacing. Should a font standard aim to support logical markup, or beautiful typesetting? The answer should be `both', which means that in practice the answer is probably `compromise'... In principle, I would suggest that getting the right output is more important than having logical markup. People are willing to have to do ugly things to get the right output in uncommon cases, but they are totally frustrated when a program cannot produce the right output with any output. I suspect that sufficiently clever macros can make almost any input form work. From Mailer-Daemon Sun Jan 19 12:13:49 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB05146; Sun, 19 Jan 92 12:09:14 MST Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 12:09:14 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9201191909.AB05146@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 columbiasc.ncr.com: Host ncrcom.DaytonOH.NCR.COM is down, will keep trying for 3 days Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05144; Sun, 19 Jan 92 12:09:14 MST Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA27233; Sun, 19 Jan 1992 14:09:11 -0500 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA02899; Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9201191909.AA02899@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu In-Reply-To: Alan Jeffrey's message of Mon, 13 Jan 92 17:23:18 GMT <8901.9201131723@csrj.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Subject: What should go into \textfont1 Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu This presents us with a problem: one scheme allows the LaTeX user to say \(\rm\bf\sigma\) and get a roman bold sigma, but the other produces better spacing. Should a font standard aim to support logical markup, or beautiful typesetting? The answer should be `both', which means that in practice the answer is probably `compromise'... In principle, I would suggest that getting the right output is more important than having logical markup. People are willing to have to do ugly things to get the right output in uncommon cases, but they are totally frustrated when a program cannot produce the right output with any output. I suspect that sufficiently clever macros can make almost any input form work. From karl@cs.umb.edu Sun Jan 19 12:15:29 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05170; Sun, 19 Jan 92 12:15:27 MST Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA27305; Sun, 19 Jan 1992 14:15:25 -0500 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA02939; Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:15:24 EST Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:15:24 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9201191915.AA02939@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts-request@math.utah.edu Subject: [Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM: Returned mail: Service unavailable] Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu Every tex-fonts message I've sent lately has elicited this. I think Neenie is no longer at that address. Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 11:12:09 PST From: Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable To: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to snail: >>> RCPT To: <<< 554 ... Unknown host : metamarks 554 ... Service unavailable ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from math.utah.edu (csc-sun.math.utah.edu) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04561; Sun, 19 Jan 92 11:12:09 PST Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05144; Sun, 19 Jan 92 12:09:14 MST Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA27233; Sun, 19 Jan 1992 14:09:11 -0500 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA02899; Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST Date: Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9201191909.AA02899@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu In-Reply-To: Alan Jeffrey's message of Mon, 13 Jan 92 17:23:18 GMT <8901.9201131723@csrj.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Subject: What should go into \textfont1 Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu This presents us with a problem: one scheme allows the LaTeX user to say \(\rm\bf\sigma\) and get a roman bold sigma, but the other produces better spacing. Should a font standard aim to support logical markup, or beautiful typesetting? The answer should be `both', which means that in practice the answer is probably `compromise'... In principle, I would suggest that getting the right output is more important than having logical markup. People are willing to have to do ugly things to get the right output in uncommon cases, but they are totally frustrated when a program cannot produce the right output with any output. I suspect that sufficiently clever macros can make almost any input form work. From @syma.sussex.ac.uk:alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk Mon Jan 20 23:01:07 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: <@syma.sussex.ac.uk:alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk> Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB18380; Mon, 20 Jan 92 23:00:57 MST Received: from syma.sussex.ac.uk by sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk via JANET with NIFTP id <11908-0@sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk>; Mon, 20 Jan 1992 14:46:24 +0000 Received: from csrj by syma.sussex.ac.uk; Mon, 20 Jan 92 13:52:48 GMT Message-Id: <437.9201201353@csrj.cogs.susx.ac.uk> From: Alan Jeffrey Date: Mon, 20 Jan 92 13:53:33 GMT To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu In-Reply-To: Karl Berry's message of Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST <9201191909.AA02899@claude.cs.umb.edu> Subject: What should go into \textfont1 >People are willing to have to do ugly things to get the right output in >uncommon cases, but they are totally frustrated when a program cannot >produce the right output with any output. Hmm... I think we have different views of the sorts of users we're aiming at. Karl's comments are apt for TeX users, but I was thinking of LaTeX users, who don't know anything about typesetting, and just want to get their paper out with as little fuss as possible. I for one don't envy trying to explain to A. N. User why $f(x)$ spaces correctly, but $f\bold{(x)}$ does not. >I suspect that sufficiently clever macros can make almost any input form >work. Surely the point of this discussion is that this isn't the case. No matter how clever your macro-writing, there's no way you can persuade TeX to kern glyphs from different fonts, or to look adjust the ligtable of a font (so, for example, ij generates a ligature for Dutch but not for American), or to change its spacing rules for math lists, or blah blah blah... Some things in TeX are best addressed at the font level, and passing the buck on to clever macro writers just generates more work for everyone in the long run. Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +44 273 606755 x 3238 alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk School of Cognitive and Computer Sciences, Sussex Univ., Brighton BN1 9QH, UK. From Mailer-Daemon Tue Jan 21 12:53:33 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB24163; Tue, 21 Jan 92 12:53:23 MST Date: Tue, 21 Jan 92 12:53:23 MST From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9201211953.AB24163@math.utah.edu> To: beebe ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: <@syma.sussex.ac.uk:alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk> Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB18380; Mon, 20 Jan 92 23:00:57 MST Received: from syma.sussex.ac.uk by sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk via JANET with NIFTP id <11908-0@sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk>; Mon, 20 Jan 1992 14:46:24 +0000 Received: from csrj by syma.sussex.ac.uk; Mon, 20 Jan 92 13:52:48 GMT Message-Id: <437.9201201353@csrj.cogs.susx.ac.uk> From: Alan Jeffrey Date: Mon, 20 Jan 92 13:53:33 GMT To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu In-Reply-To: Karl Berry's message of Sun, 19 Jan 92 14:09:08 EST <9201191909.AA02899@claude.cs.umb.edu> Subject: What should go into \textfont1 >People are willing to have to do ugly things to get the right output in >uncommon cases, but they are totally frustrated when a program cannot >produce the right output with any output. Hmm... I think we have different views of the sorts of users we're aiming at. Karl's comments are apt for TeX users, but I was thinking of LaTeX users, who don't know anything about typesetting, and just want to get their paper out with as little fuss as possible. I for one don't envy trying to explain to A. N. User why $f(x)$ spaces correctly, but $f\bold{(x)}$ does not. >I suspect that sufficiently clever macros can make almost any input form >work. Surely the point of this discussion is that this isn't the case. No matter how clever your macro-writing, there's no way you can persuade TeX to kern glyphs from different fonts, or to look adjust the ligtable of a font (so, for example, ij generates a ligature for Dutch but not for American), or to change its spacing rules for math lists, or blah blah blah... Some things in TeX are best addressed at the font level, and passing the buck on to clever macro writers just generates more work for everyone in the long run. Alan. Alan Jeffrey Tel: +44 273 606755 x 3238 alanje@cogs.sussex.ac.uk School of Cognitive and Computer Sciences, Sussex Univ., Brighton BN1 9QH, UK. From Mailer-Daemon Thu Apr 16 10:20:03 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB18147; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:08:44 MDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:08:44 MDT From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9204161608.AB18147@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 vax.oxford.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 cogs.sussex.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 minster.york.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18145; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:08:44 MDT Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA24569; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:08:39 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA09440; Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:08:36 EDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:08:36 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9204161608.AA09440@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: info-tex@shsu.BITNET, tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, uktex@tex.ac.uk Subject: Utopia and Charter typefaces for TeX Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu Adobe and Bitstream donated the usual (roman, italic, bold, bold italic) variants of the Utopia and Charter typefaces to the X consortium a while back. They donated both the AFM (Adobe font metric) files and the PF[AB] (the Type 1 fonts with the shape information) files. I ran the AFM's through afm2tfm (from labrea.stanford.edu:dvips*.tar.Z) to make TFM and VF files for use with TeX and dvips. If you want to save the trouble of doing it yourself: You can get all the files from ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/{charter,utopia}.tar.Z. karl@cs.umb.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom---write to league@prep.ai.mit.edu. From karl@cs.umb.edu Thu Apr 16 10:27:04 1992 Flags: 000000000011 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18326; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:27:00 MDT Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA25251; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:26:48 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA09490; Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:26:46 EDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:26:46 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9204161626.AA09490@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: info-tex@shsu.BITNET, tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, uktex@tex.ac.uk Subject: PK files for PostScript fonts Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu I've put a bunch of PK files for the standard 35 PostScript fonts on ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/psfonts.tar It's about 4MB. I made the PK files from the fonts distributed with Ghostscript. Since those fonts are, for the most part, constructed simply of line segments, these PK files are not perhaps the most typographically wonderful things in the world. But they are good enough to see what characters are where, which is all I cared about. I used the `gsrenderfont' and related programs in the GNU font utilities (on prep.ai.mit.edu, among many other places) to make the PK files. (Except that some bugs were found making them, so the version on prep doesn't work on a few of the fonts. I can send diffs if anyone wants them.) They are in the ``dvips'' encoding. You can get dvips from labrea.stanford.edu:pub/dvips*.tar.Z. (gsrenderfont can generate them in any encoding.) I and others are working on making good free fonts for GNU, by running scanned images of old type speciments (of public domain designs) through the font utilities. If you would like to help, send me mail. (The first step is getting the font utilities and compiling them.) karl@cs.umb.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom---write to league@prep.ai.mit.edu. From Mailer-Daemon Thu Apr 16 10:37:10 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB18328; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:27:00 MDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:27:00 MDT From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9204161627.AB18328@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 vax.acs.open.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 vax.oxford.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days 421 cogs.sussex.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 421 minster.york.ac.uk: Host sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18326; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:27:00 MDT Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA25251; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:26:48 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA09490; Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:26:46 EDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:26:46 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9204161626.AA09490@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: info-tex@shsu.BITNET, tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, uktex@tex.ac.uk Subject: PK files for PostScript fonts Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu I've put a bunch of PK files for the standard 35 PostScript fonts on ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/psfonts.tar It's about 4MB. I made the PK files from the fonts distributed with Ghostscript. Since those fonts are, for the most part, constructed simply of line segments, these PK files are not perhaps the most typographically wonderful things in the world. But they are good enough to see what characters are where, which is all I cared about. I used the `gsrenderfont' and related programs in the GNU font utilities (on prep.ai.mit.edu, among many other places) to make the PK files. (Except that some bugs were found making them, so the version on prep doesn't work on a few of the fonts. I can send diffs if anyone wants them.) They are in the ``dvips'' encoding. You can get dvips from labrea.stanford.edu:pub/dvips*.tar.Z. (gsrenderfont can generate them in any encoding.) I and others are working on making good free fonts for GNU, by running scanned images of old type speciments (of public domain designs) through the font utilities. If you would like to help, send me mail. (The first step is getting the font utilities and compiling them.) karl@cs.umb.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom---write to league@prep.ai.mit.edu. From karl@cs.umb.edu Thu Apr 16 10:08:47 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18145; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:08:44 MDT Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA24569; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:08:39 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA09440; Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:08:36 EDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:08:36 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9204161608.AA09440@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: info-tex@shsu.BITNET, tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, uktex@tex.ac.uk Subject: Utopia and Charter typefaces for TeX Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu Adobe and Bitstream donated the usual (roman, italic, bold, bold italic) variants of the Utopia and Charter typefaces to the X consortium a while back. They donated both the AFM (Adobe font metric) files and the PF[AB] (the Type 1 fonts with the shape information) files. I ran the AFM's through afm2tfm (from labrea.stanford.edu:dvips*.tar.Z) to make TFM and VF files for use with TeX and dvips. If you want to save the trouble of doing it yourself: You can get all the files from ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/{charter,utopia}.tar.Z. karl@cs.umb.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom---write to league@prep.ai.mit.edu. From karl@cs.umb.edu Tue Apr 21 15:54:50 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA25988; Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:54:46 MDT Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA01890; Tue, 21 Apr 1992 17:54:31 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA22418; Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:03:35 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:03:35 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9204211903.AA22418@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, info-tex@shsu.BITNET, uktex@tex.ac.uk, texhax@cs.washington.edu Cc: bigelow@sunburn.stanford.edu Subject: Lucida TFM/VF's for TeX Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu I've put metric files for using the PostScript Lucida fonts with TeX on ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/lucida/lucida.tar.Z These files will be of no use to you unless you also have the Type 1 PFA/PFB/etc. files with the outlines. This includes the math fonts as a (more or less) drop-in replacement for Computer Modern. I've worked some on the magic math font parameters, but no doubt improvements are possible. I used virtual fonts to do this. I suggest using Tom Rokicki's dvips as your DVI-to-PostScript program. dvips is on labrea.stanford.edu:pub/dvips*.tar.Z. Thanks to Sebastian Rahtz, who did much of the initial work, and Chuck Bigelow and Kris Holmes, who designed the typefaces. karl@cs.umb.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom---write to league@prep.ai.mit.edu. From Mailer-Daemon Tue Apr 21 16:16:45 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB26157; Tue, 21 Apr 92 16:16:14 MDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 16:16:14 MDT From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: Remote protocol error Message-Id: <9204212216.AB26157@math.utah.edu> To: beebe ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to cs.umb.edu: >>> DATA <<< 550 beebe@cs.umb.edu... User unknown 554 karl@cs.umb.edu... Remote protocol error ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA25988; Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:54:46 MDT Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA01890; Tue, 21 Apr 1992 17:54:31 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA22418; Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:03:35 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:03:35 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9204211903.AA22418@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, info-tex@shsu.BITNET, uktex@tex.ac.uk, texhax@cs.washington.edu Cc: bigelow@sunburn.stanford.edu Subject: Lucida TFM/VF's for TeX Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu I've put metric files for using the PostScript Lucida fonts with TeX on ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/lucida/lucida.tar.Z These files will be of no use to you unless you also have the Type 1 PFA/PFB/etc. files with the outlines. This includes the math fonts as a (more or less) drop-in replacement for Computer Modern. I've worked some on the magic math font parameters, but no doubt improvements are possible. I used virtual fonts to do this. I suggest using Tom Rokicki's dvips as your DVI-to-PostScript program. dvips is on labrea.stanford.edu:pub/dvips*.tar.Z. Thanks to Sebastian Rahtz, who did much of the initial work, and Chuck Bigelow and Kris Holmes, who designed the typefaces. karl@cs.umb.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom---write to league@prep.ai.mit.edu. From Mailer-Daemon Tue Apr 21 16:04:15 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB25990; Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:54:46 MDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:54:46 MDT From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9204212154.AB25990@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown 451 net hang reading from cs.umb.edu: Connection timed out during greeting wait with cs.umb.edu ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA25988; Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:54:46 MDT Errors-To: beebe Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA01890; Tue, 21 Apr 1992 17:54:31 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA22418; Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:03:35 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 15:03:35 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9204211903.AA22418@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, info-tex@shsu.BITNET, uktex@tex.ac.uk, texhax@cs.washington.edu Cc: bigelow@sunburn.stanford.edu Subject: Lucida TFM/VF's for TeX Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu I've put metric files for using the PostScript Lucida fonts with TeX on ftp.cs.umb.edu [192.12.26.23]:pub/tex/lucida/lucida.tar.Z These files will be of no use to you unless you also have the Type 1 PFA/PFB/etc. files with the outlines. This includes the math fonts as a (more or less) drop-in replacement for Computer Modern. I've worked some on the magic math font parameters, but no doubt improvements are possible. I used virtual fonts to do this. I suggest using Tom Rokicki's dvips as your DVI-to-PostScript program. dvips is on labrea.stanford.edu:pub/dvips*.tar.Z. Thanks to Sebastian Rahtz, who did much of the initial work, and Chuck Bigelow and Kris Holmes, who designed the typefaces. karl@cs.umb.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom---write to league@prep.ai.mit.edu. From karl@cs.umb.edu Thu May 14 15:20:24 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cs.umb.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05627; Thu, 14 May 92 15:20:19 MDT Received: from claude.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu (5.65c/1.34) id AA05668; Thu, 14 May 1992 17:13:27 -0400 Received: by claude.cs.umb.edu (4.1/1.34) id AA05180; Thu, 14 May 92 17:13:24 EDT Date: Thu, 14 May 92 17:13:24 EDT From: karl@cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry) Message-Id: <9205142113.AA05180@claude.cs.umb.edu> To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Cc: pd@kubism.ku.dk Subject: [pd@kubism.ku.dk: 8-bit fonts for TeX ?] Reply-To: karl@cs.umb.edu I told this person about the Cork standard, but I think the points he brings up are good ones, and not addressed by Cork. My full reply is below. Date: Thu, 7 May 92 12:01:44 +0200 From: Peter Dalgaard SFE To: karl@cs.umb.edu Subject: 8-bit fonts for TeX ? Sorry to bother you if this is outside your field of interest, but you seem to know about everything font-ish. The problem is this: TeX v.3++ allows 8-bit chars on input. Those of us with chars outside standard ascii in our national languages were very happy to see that. However, it is only half a solution when some of the extra characters are accented, since TeX cannot hyphenate words with accented characters inside. As I see it, the obvious solution would be to create extended sets of TeX fonts (virtual or `real') by filling in characters corresponding to the ISO encodings, e.g. ISO-Latin1 for most European languages. Some of the characters currently found at positions below "20 would then appear at positions above "80; they should probably be copied rather than moved. The region between "80 and "9F is blank in the ISO encodings and might be used for additional ligatures (for a Dane, the absence of `fj' is conspicuous). Note, by the way, that some accented characters really deserve greater individuality than that afforded by the operation of accenting -- for instance, \AA is often designed with the ring as an integral part of the glyph. Do you know whether anybody has done something along these lines? It would be a very tall order for me to do it, since I have no experience in font creation beyond invoking Metafont on a ready-made .mf file. Besides, there is an aspect of standardisation in this, so it would be preferable if someone with a sufficiently loud voice in the TeX community were interested. Peter Dalgaard Statistical Research Unit Univ. Copenhagen (pd@kubism.ku.dk) (my reply): Briefly, some people made an 8-bit encoding scheme for TeX at a TUG meeting a couple years ago. It was published in TUGboat 11#4. Personally, I think it has serious problems: it's not based on ISO Latin 1 (i.e., not all the ISO Latin 1 chars are present, and those that are are not all in their ISO Latin 1 positions); it doesn't include all the standard PostScript characters; it doesn't have any blank spaces to be filled in ``per font''. I made up another encoding to try to meet those needs when we needed it for the GNU font project, but there are no fonts in that encoding in existence now. Since 256 characters are not enough, we also made up a ``text complement font'' for lesser-used but still useful characters. It's not obvious to me how to get TeX to work well with two text fonts (in fact, I doubt it's possible), but at least the characters will be there. Here is our gnulatin.enc: % The GNU latin text font encoding scheme, as developed by Karl Berry % and Kathy Hargreaves on 12-31-91. GNU Latin Text .notdef .notdef .notdef .notdef .notdef .notdef .notdef .notdef % bullet % Standard 267 dagger % Standard 262 daggerdbl % Standard 263 ff lig i =: 016 lig l =: 017 % TeX Text fi % TeX Text fl % TeX Text ffi % TeX Text ffl % TeX Text % quotedblleft % Extended TeX Latin quotedblright % Extended TeX Latin guilsinglleft % Standard 0254 guilsinglright % Standard 0255 quotesinglbase % Standard 0270 endash lig - =: 026 % Extended TeX Latin emdash % Extended TeX Latin compoundwordmark % Extended TeX Latin (non-Adobe name) % zerolowered % Extended TeX Latin (non-Adobe name) threequartersemdash % Expert 075 quotesingle % Standard 0251 (foot mark) oe % TeX Text quotedblbase % Standard 0271 perthousand % Standard 0275 OE % TeX Text florin % Standard 0246 % space exclam quotedbl numbersign dollar percent ampersand quoteright lig ' =: 021 % parenleft parenright asterisk plus comma asciihyphen lig - =: 025 period slash % zero one two three four five six seven % eight nine colon semicolon less equal greater question % at A B C D E F G % H I J K L M N O % P Q R S T U V W % X Y Z bracketleft backslash bracketright asciicircum underscore % quoteleft lig ` =: 020 % `` => opening double quote char a b c d e f lig f =: 013 lig i =: 014 lig l =: 015 g % h i j k l m n o % p q r s t u v w % x y z braceleft bar braceright asciitilde fraction % Standard 244 % zerooldstyle % Expert 060 oneoldstyle % Expert 061 twooldstyle % Expert 062 threeoldstyle % Expert 063 fouroldstyle % Expert 064 fiveoldstyle % Expert 065 sixoldstyle % Expert 066 sevenoldstyle % Expert 067 % eightoldstyle % Expert 070 nineoldstyle % Expert 071 Lslash % TeX Text lslash % non-Adobe name ij % Extended TeX Latin 0274 (non-Adobe name) Eng % Extended TeX Latin (non-Adobe name) eng % Extended TeX Latin 0255 (non-Adobe name) SS % Extended TeX Latin 0337 (non-Adobe name) % dotlessi grave colonmonetary % Expert 173 circumflex tilde ellipses % Standard 0274 (Adobe replicated ISO macron 257) breve dotaccent % dotlessj % TeX Text 021 (non-Adobe name) % (Adobe replicated ISO dieresis 230) dbar % Extended TeX Latin 0236 (non-Adobe name) ring cedilla % Standard 0313 IJ % Extended TeX Latin 0234 (non-Adobe name) hungarumlaut ogonek caron % nobreakspace % (non-Adobe name) exclamdown cent sterling currency yen brokenbar section % dieresis copyright ordfeminine guillemotleft logicalnot hyphen registered macron % degree plusminus twosuperior threesuperior acute mu paragraph periodcentered % cedilla onesuperior ordmasculine guillemotright onequarter onehalf threequarters questiondown % Agrave Aacute Acircumflex Atilde Adieresis Aring AE Ccedilla % Egrave Eacute Ecircumflex Edieresis Igrave Iacute Icircumflex Idieresis % Eth Ntilde Ograve Oacute Ocircumflex Otilde Odieresis multiply % Oslash Ugrave Uacute Ucircumflex Udieresis Yacute Thorn germandbls % agrave aacute acircumflex atilde adieresis aring ae ccedilla % egrave eacute ecircumflex edieresis igrave iacute icircumflex idieresis % eth ntilde ograve oacute ocircumflex otilde odieresis divide % oslash ugrave uacute ucircumflex udieresis yacute thorn ydieresis Here is the complement font: From mackay@cs.washington.edu Thu May 14 18:52:38 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Received: from june.cs.washington.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA06747; Thu, 14 May 92 18:52:36 MDT Received: by june.cs.washington.edu (5.64a/7.1ju) id AA13865; Thu, 14 May 92 17:52:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 May 92 17:52:13 -0700 From: mackay@cs.washington.edu (Pierre MacKay) Return-Path: Message-Id: <9205150052.AA13865@june.cs.washington.edu> To: karl@cs.umb.edu Cc: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, pd@kubism.ku.dk, mackay@cs.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Karl Berry's message of Thu, 14 May 92 17:13:24 EDT <9205142113.AA05180@claude.cs.umb.edu> Subject: [pd@kubism.ku.dk: 8-bit fonts for TeX ?] You may be interested in a scheme I am almost ready to release, which allows pretty free mapping of METAFONTS in the 128-255 area. (down below too, but that can get you into difficulties in the related TeX coding). Why not have a hard and fast scheme? Karl givess one reason, and the enclosed copy of a letter that I never got around to mailing indicates another. --------------------------------------------------------- \opening{Dear Mr. Freytag,} When I received the Unicode Draft over a year ago, I was working on other alphabets, and I am afraid I did not notice till today a curious omission from all the coding tables. In a sense, it is understandable, since the missing letters are not part of the {\it official} alphabet of any country, but then neither are IPA characters, and they have been allowed spaces. I enclose proof sheets of the 11 characters I have recently been working on (lower case only, but they all have upper case siblings). These are used in the Roman-letter transcription of the principal Islamic (Arabic Script) languages, and probably have a wider international currency than many of the obscurer characters in the Latin 1 and Extended Latin set. There are a couple of duplications in function, but no ambiguities unless ``s with bar under'' gets misused as a substitute for ``s with cedilla''. Transcriptions concerned primarily with the rendering of Arabic Script in an Arabic context will use ``t with bar under'' and ``d with bar under'' where in a Persian or Turkish context, you are more likely to find ``s with bar under'' and ``z with bar under'' as representing {\bf 062B} Arabic Letter THEH and {\bf 0630} Arabic Letter THAL respectively. There are literally millions of pages a year published making extensive use of the characters I enclose. I am not sure when the equivalences were first agreed on, but it is well back in the 19th century. I became aware of the absence of these characters from Unicode when I was planning to remap a thoroughly idiosyncratic font table to some more general standard. My first choice was Unicode, but I found to my surprise that half the characters I had developed have no identity whatsoever in any of the tables. But every Latin letter periodical with a primary interest in the Near Eastern and Islamic studies uses these characters intensively, as do most of the monographs and books published in the field, and the Central Asiatic Republics in the Turkish language regions of the former Soviet Union, who speak with a somewhat different phonetic repertory than the Turks of the Ankara-based Republic are very likely to adopt some of this set. I am a bit surprised that no one from the Research Libraries Group noted the extensive use of this character set in bibliographic references. I fear it is probably too late to do much about this now, which is rather a pity, since the particular design effort I have been working on is part of an attempt to develop a standardized text database using SGML. But I felt it would do no harm to communicate with you about the matter, since I really do not know what stage the negotiations about Unicode have reached. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The general idea is to have a distinct mapping file in which accented characters are given names with purely descriptive content, and to make that mapping file as easy as possible to re-edit into an included TeX macro file. It works rather nicely, and by using an intermediate stage of ligatures with a post-positive accent convention, I can even feed several different ugly word-processor codings through the same tex input file with only a change in the small mapping file. If you're interested, I'll send a typical mapping file, and in a short while I'll send the full schema. Incidentally, it treats all of Don Knuth's computer modern character descriptions (or any similar ones for that matter) as read-only sources, to avoid the creation of dialect versions of well-known characters. Email concerned with UnixTeX distribution software should be sent primarily to: elisabet@max.u.washington.edu Elizabeth Tachikawa otherwise to: mackay@cs.washington.edu Pierre A. MacKay Smail: Northwest Computing Support Center TUG Site Coordinator for Thomson Hall, Mail Stop DR-10 Unix-flavored TeX University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 (206) 543-6259 From ridgeway@blackbox.hacc.washington.edu Fri May 15 15:10:10 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from blackbox.hacc.washington.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA13681; Fri, 15 May 92 15:10:07 MDT Received: by blackbox.hacc.washington.edu (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/UW-NDC Revision: 2.6 ) id AA15595; Fri, 15 May 92 13:51:56 PDT From: Thomas B. Ridgeway Message-Id: <9205152051.AA15595@blackbox.hacc.washington.edu> Subject: Re: [pd@kubism.ku.dk: 8-bit fonts for TeX ?] To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu Date: Fri, 15 May 92 13:51:54 PDT In-Reply-To: <9205142113.AA05180@claude.cs.umb.edu>; from "Karl Berry" at May 14, 92 5:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL11] Another solution to a similar problem may be viewed in the character mapping and accent generation mechanisms in the wnri (Washington Romanized Indic) family, currently quietly available for testing and comment at blackbox.hacc.washington.edu [128.95.200.1] in directory pub/indic. In summary, a separate small mapping file assigns values to characters which are otherwise only known by symbolic names [this technique was originally used in the CMCYR family]. Symbolic names for characters with accents may be built up, and the accented characters generated by recompiling slightly modified version(s) of romanl/u. Only the characters which are assigned values in the mapping file are generated, so if acute.a:=161 is found, but there is no acute.m, then we get an \'a, but no \'m. Please do not re-post or forward this notice to other lists or news-groups. I am not yet ready to release this project to the email-generating general public. Tom -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Thomas Ridgeway, Director, Humanities and Arts Computing Center/NorthWest Computing Support Center 35 Thomson Hall, University of Washington, DR-10 Seattle, WA 98195 phone: (206)-543-4218 * Ask me about * Internet: ridgeway@blackbox.hacc.washington.edu * Unix TeX * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From KNAPPEN@VKPMZD.KPH.Uni-Mainz.de Sat May 16 14:35:36 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from vzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA19894; Sat, 16 May 92 14:35:32 MDT Received: from DECNET-DAEMON by VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE (PMDF #12046) id <01GK3G0PZEOW8WWCLH@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE>; Sat, 16 May 1992 22:26 GMT +0100 Date: Sat, 16 May 1992 22:26 GMT +0100 From: J%org Knappen Subject: TeX extended fonts To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, pd@kubism.ku.dk Message-Id: <01GK3G0PZEOW8WWCLH@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE> X-Envelope-To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu X-Vms-To: IN"tex-fonts@math.utah.edu",IN"pd@kubism.ku.dk" This post contains in its forst part some answers to Peter Dalgaard, in the second some more general things. First of all, the Cork standard is not only a pure prescription, there already exist some implemantations of it: --The dc-fonts by N. Schwarz, Bochum They are written in METAFONT. --The em-fonts sold by ArborText. They are virtual fonts. Some characters (Edh, thorn, eng) are missing. There are also dc-hyphenation patterns available for several languages, but I don't know if danish is among them yet. Somewhere I have a TeXed table which simulates the Cork font layout using cm-fonts. I can send it, if you want. The table is worth careful study before demanding for changes or other font encodings. Now to the general part: One of the main advantages of TeX is its high degree of portability. This would be immediately destroyed, if we had fonts with free slots, which are different from country to country. Noone will have all the national fonts ready at their installation. The Cork (ec) scheme is a good compromise and I think it serves its purpose (typesetting text in the most european languages\footnote{american english is considered a european language}) very well. There are some shortcommings, of course. Non european languages have additional letters (vietnamese, african languages, amerindian languages) to the latin alphabet, which are not covers in the ec scheme. Special character for old english (yogh, wynn, long s, long s ligatures) are missing. Some european languages (lattvian, celtic languages, maltese, sami) are not covered. The formation of ligatures is language dependent, e.g. you don't want an fi-ligature in turkish. A solution of these problems might be the following\footnote{I got this idea >From Yannis Haralambous}: Create a font, gc (generic computer), which contains all the elements to build the characters for latin writing from. These elements contain base letters, ligatures and diacritics. Build virtual fonts from these elements. Maybe we need two of them, because there are more than 256 ``elements'' to consider. IMHO, the gc fonts should be a supplement to the ec fonts and contain only elements not included there. I wish it could be possible to keep the number of virtual fonts and encoding schemes low, but I'm afraid this is an illusion. Everybody likes to emulate their favourite machine character sets :-(. For portabibility it is necessary to resolve the virtual fonts into its real components (using an utility like P. Breitenlohner's dvicopy). Yours sincerly, J"org Knappen. P.S. Karl Berry's message ended with the line ``Here is the complement font:''. I'm afraid, that it was mangled. Karl, could you please resend the rest of your message? P.P.S. (to Tom Ridgeway) In the fc (aFrican Computer) fonts I used a similar ansatz. By rearranging the program files it is possible to save cpu time (the base letter is computed one time and saved as a picture, only the diacritics are added). The fc fonts are available from ftp.rus.uni-stuttgart.de under soft/tex/fonts/metafont/fc From Mailer-Daemon Sat May 16 14:42:57 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB19896; Sat, 16 May 92 14:35:32 MDT Date: Sat, 16 May 92 14:35:32 MDT From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <9205162035.AB19896@math.utah.edu> To: owner-tex-fonts ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Connected to AFSC-BMO.AF.MIL: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 User "johnm" Unknown. 550 johnm@afsc-bmo.af.mil... User unknown Connected to video.inrs-telecom.uquebec.ca: >>> DATA <<< 454 Transaction failed; %JBC-E-JOBQUEDIS, system job queue manager is not running 421 vm1.yorku.ca: Host vm1.yorku.ca is down, will keep trying for 3 days ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from vzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA19894; Sat, 16 May 92 14:35:32 MDT Errors-To: beebe Received: from DECNET-DAEMON by VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE (PMDF #12046) id <01GK3G0PZEOW8WWCLH@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE>; Sat, 16 May 1992 22:26 GMT +0100 Date: Sat, 16 May 1992 22:26 GMT +0100 From: J%org Knappen Subject: TeX extended fonts To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu, pd@kubism.ku.dk Message-Id: <01GK3G0PZEOW8WWCLH@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE> X-Envelope-To: tex-fonts@math.utah.edu X-Vms-To: IN"tex-fonts@math.utah.edu",IN"pd@kubism.ku.dk" This post contains in its forst part some answers to Peter Dalgaard, in the second some more general things. First of all, the Cork standard is not only a pure prescription, there already exist some implemantations of it: --The dc-fonts by N. Schwarz, Bochum They are written in METAFONT. --The em-fonts sold by ArborText. They are virtual fonts. Some characters (Edh, thorn, eng) are missing. There are also dc-hyphenation patterns available for several languages, but I don't know if danish is among them yet. Somewhere I have a TeXed table which simulates the Cork font layout using cm-fonts. I can send it, if you want. The table is worth careful study before demanding for changes or other font encodings. Now to the general part: One of the main advantages of TeX is its high degree of portability. This would be immediately destroyed, if we had fonts with free slots, which are different from country to country. Noone will have all the national fonts ready at their installation. The Cork (ec) scheme is a good compromise and I think it serves its purpose (typesetting text in the most european languages\footnote{american english is considered a european language}) very well. There are some shortcommings, of course. Non european languages have additional letters (vietnamese, african languages, amerindian languages) to the latin alphabet, which are not covers in the ec scheme. Special character for old english (yogh, wynn, long s, long s ligatures) are missing. Some european languages (lattvian, celtic languages, maltese, sami) are not covered. The formation of ligatures is language dependent, e.g. you don't want an fi-ligature in turkish. A solution of these problems might be the following\footnote{I got this idea >From Yannis Haralambous}: Create a font, gc (generic computer), which contains all the elements to build the characters for latin writing from. These elements contain base letters, ligatures and diacritics. Build virtual fonts from these elements. Maybe we need two of them, because there are more than 256 ``elements'' to consider. IMHO, the gc fonts should be a supplement to the ec fonts and contain only elements not included there. I wish it could be possible to keep the number of virtual fonts and encoding schemes low, but I'm afraid this is an illusion. Everybody likes to emulate their favourite machine character sets :-(. For portabibility it is necessary to resolve the virtual fonts into its real components (using an utility like P. Breitenlohner's dvicopy). Yours sincerly, J"org Knappen. P.S. Karl Berry's message ended with the line ``Here is the complement font:''. I'm afraid, that it was mangled. Karl, could you please resend the rest of your message? P.P.S. (to Tom Ridgeway) In the fc (aFrican Computer) fonts I used a similar ansatz. By rearranging the program files it is possible to save cpu time (the base letter is computed one time and saved as a picture, only the diacritics are added). The fc fonts are available from ftp.rus.uni-stuttgart.de under soft/tex/fonts/metafont/fc