Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 03:40:11 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Mark.Probert@nms.otc.com.au (Mark Probert) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Mark.Probert@NMS.OTC.COM.AU Message-ID: <9308020709.AA10849@nmstms1.pad.otc.com.au> Subject: join To: LitProg@SHSU.EDU Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 17:09:48 GMT Please join me to this list -- mark. (probertm@nms.otc.com.au) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 04:25:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199308020924.AA08753@yggdrasil> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: RFD for comp.programming.literate has been posted Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 11:24:06 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH The RFD for comp.programming.literate has been posted on Usenet last week, and discussion so far was mostly in favor of a newsgroup creation. I don't think it is necessary to repost it here, as the posted version is practically identical to the 3rd iteration posted here a week ago (If you would like a copy of the RFD that was posted, send me mail, and I'll mail you one). I made a mistake in the post by omitting comp.lang.pascal and comp.lang.modula2, which will be included in the 2nd RFD which is posted around Wednesday. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "And that's why I am going to turn this world upside down, and make of it a fire so *bright* that someone real will notice" -- Vernor Vinge, _Tatja Grimm's World_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 09:37:59 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Aaron) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@BCSTEC.CA.BOEING.COM Message-ID: <9308021432.AA26490@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: Re: RFD for comp.programming.literate has been posted To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 7:32:31 PDT Matthias Ulrich Neeracher said: > > The RFD for comp.programming.literate has been posted on Usenet last week, and > discussion so far was mostly in favor of a newsgroup creation. I don't think it > is necessary to repost it here, as the posted version is practically identical I only reposted that part of the post necessary to give some context to my question, and deleted the rest. -- aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (206)655-5369 |Aaron |Boeing Commercial Airplanes |PO BOX 3707 M/S 11-PT I know enough to know that I don't know enough. |Seattle WA 98124 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1993 00:38:53 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Aaron) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@BCSTEC.CA.BOEING.COM Message-ID: <9308030533.AA28851@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: cweb and tex, overwhelmed To: LitProg@SHSU.edu (Literate Programming Mailing List) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 22:33:49 PDT I just ftpmailed the cweb files from labrea.something.stanford. I realize from cruising through the files that I also need tex. Looking through the tex directories at labrea.something.stanford has overwhelmed me. I'm pretty sure I don't want _all_ that tex stuff. Would someone be kind enough to post on this mail list: - what files to get, for "just enough tex" to make cweb work - best place to get 'em if not stanford Your most humble slave, -- aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (206)655-5369 |Aaron |Boeing Commercial Airplanes |PO BOX 3707 M/S 11-PT I know enough to know that I don't know enough. |Seattle WA 98124 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1993 00:46:18 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Aaron) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@BCSTEC.CA.BOEING.COM Message-ID: <9308030541.AA29014@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: cweb & tex books/resources To: LitProg@SHSU.edu (Literate Programming Mailing List) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 22:41:16 PDT Would someone be kind enough to list their favorite books or files(with location) that constitute "just enough" to help a beginner get going with cweb? My focus is cweb, I only want to know enough tex to work and produce effectively in cweb. Thanks, -- aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (206)655-5369 |Aaron |Boeing Commercial Airplanes |PO BOX 3707 M/S 11-PT I know enough to know that I don't know enough. |Seattle WA 98124 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1993 13:32:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 14:30:36 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <9308031830.AA18402@flaubert.bellcore.com> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: books Wayne Sewell's book (Weaving a Program?) is the only one I know of that addresses dirty details of web tools. It may be out of print, and you may find it disappointing, but that's what there is. Norman Ramsey ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1993 16:53:52 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 15:39 EDT From: tim@tct.com (Tim Magill) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, tim@TCT.COM To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: subscribe subscribe tim@tct.com ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1993 10:31:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: David Thompson Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dthompson@COE2.COE.TTU.EDU To: LitProg Subject: books Date: Wed, 04 Aug 93 10:22:00 PDT Message-ID: <2C5FF093@cpds01.coe.ttu.edu> > Wayne Sewell's book (Weaving a Program?) is the only one I know of that > addresses dirty details of web tools. It may be out of print, and you > may find it disappointing, but that's what there is. It is still available. I found my copy at Computer Literacy Bookstore in the Silicon Valley. -=d ======================================================================= David B. Thompson internet: wqdbt@ttacs1.ttu.edu Civil Engineering Dept. internet: dthompson@coe2.coe.ttu.edu Texas Tech University internet: thompson@sun1.coe.ttu.edu P.O. Box 41023 Lubbock, Texas 79409-1023 USA ======================================================================= ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1993 11:41:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 4 Aug 93 12:39:29 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com Subject: Re: cweb & tex books/resources Message-ID: The best books I've found for beginners are: _TeX for the Beginner_ by Wynter Snow (Is this the author's real name?) Addison-Wesley, 1992. _A Beginner's Book of TeX_ by Raymond Seroul and Silvio Levy, Springer-Verlag, 1991. The former is a bit more ``hand-holding,'' while the latter contains more details. Check them out and see which one ``speaks to you.'' Both are still in print and can be ordered by your local bookstore. Barnes & Noble stores (and derivatives, like BookStop) usually carry one or both in stock. Michael Doob's "A Gentle Introduction to TeX" is excellent, and available via anonymous ftp (I'm sure there's a copy at pip.shsu.edu, but "archie gentle.tex" should find it for sure). Unfortunately, you need TeX to generate a copy, unless a PostScript version is also available at the ftp site. I think I have a copy somewhere and could email you the PostScript version, if you like. In your previous message, you said you were looking for a copy of TeX for yourself. What machine (and operating system) do you want it to run on? I use emTeX, an excellent implementation for MS-DOS and OS/2 systems, which is available via anonymous ftp from pip.shsu.edu (and elsewhere). However, emTeX won't be of much help if you don't have a PC or clone. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1993 12:45:48 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Aaron) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@BCSTEC.CA.BOEING.COM Message-ID: <9308041740.AA05832@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: Re: books To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dthompson@COE2.COE.TTU.EDU Date: Wed, 4 Aug 93 10:40:10 PDT David Thompson said: > > Wayne Sewell's book (Weaving a Program?) is the only one I know of that > > addresses dirty details of web tools. It may be out of print, and you > > may find it disappointing, but that's what there is. > > It is still available. I found my copy at Computer Literacy Bookstore in > the Silicon Valley. thanks, I'll check it out. -- aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (206)655-5369 |Aaron |Boeing Commercial Airplanes |PO BOX 3707 M/S 11-PT I know enough to know that I don't know enough. |Seattle WA 98124 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1993 02:50:07 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 09:13:19 +0200 From: Christian Lynbech Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Message-ID: <199308050713.AA18475@sezanne.daimi.aau.dk> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET CC: LitProg@shsu.edu, aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com Subject: Re: cweb & tex books/resources > X-Listname: Literate Programming Discussion List > Warnings-To: <> > Errors-To: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu > Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu > Date: Wed, 4 Aug 93 12:39:29 EDT > From: Lee Wittenberg > Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET > X-Charset: LATIN1 > X-Char-Esc: 29 > [... stuff deleted...] > > In your previous message, you said you were looking for a copy of TeX > for yourself. What machine (and operating system) do you want it to > run on? I use emTeX, an excellent implementation for MS-DOS and OS/2 > systems, which is available via anonymous ftp from pip.shsu.edu (and > elsewhere). However, emTeX won't be of much help if you don't have a > PC or clone. > I guess that TeX has been ported to most systems by now. It certainly is also available for the atari, so check out your favourite ftp site, or try archie. Incidently, there is a shorter document on setting up a TeX system on the atari, aimed at the first-time user. I do not know how specific to the atari port it is, but if I remember correctly it takes the time to explain what the various files and programs are supposed to do, and that should be general enough. I can dig up a copy if you are interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christian Lynbech | Hit the philistines three times over the office: R0.32 phone: 5034 | head with the Elisp reference manual. email: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk | - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1993 09:48:01 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 09:44:00 CDT From: bart@cs.tamu.edu (Bart Childs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@CS.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9308051444.AA12611@clavin> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: WEB-MODE problems with emacs 19.?? I am finally back from international travel and a three week interruption due to a death in the family. I have done the following checkouts of the problem: 1. using emacs 19.16 and web-mode.elc that was byte-compiled on emacs 18.58.4 it works like a charm. 2. using emacs 19.16 and byte compiling a new version I get a lot of warnings but no error that is apparent to me in making a new web-mode.elc 3. The new web-mode.elc is just a bit shorter and absolutely will not work. Has anybody else tried similar steps? Please let me know. I will be letting our locals who communicate with FSF about this and asking them to inquire as to possible problems with version 19 or new rules in 19 that we are violating in web-mode.el. Thanks Bart Childs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1993 02:50:28 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 08:59:31 +0200 From: Christian Lynbech Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Message-ID: <199308060659.AA07111@avignon.daimi.aau.dk> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@cs.tamu.edu CC: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Re: WEB-MODE problems with emacs 19.?? > I am finally back from international travel and a three week > interruption due to a death in the family. I have done the > following checkouts of the problem: > > 1. using emacs 19.16 and web-mode.elc that was byte-compiled on > emacs 18.58.4 it works like a charm. > 2. using emacs 19.16 and byte compiling a new version I get > a lot of warnings but no error that is apparent to me in > making a new web-mode.elc > 3. The new web-mode.elc is just a bit shorter and absolutely > will not work. > > Bart Childs This sounds rather mysterious to me. If the V18 compiled version works and the V19 compiled one does not, then it is a bug. I assume that you are trying to get web-mode.elc to work with 19.16, because the byte-codes has changed, and one compiled on V19 will not work on a V18 emacs, though goeing the other way shoudl always work, and has done for me. You may however try fidling with the variables byte-compile-compability and byte-optimize, which controls various features of the new bytecompiler. You could also look at the warnings, and watch out for any obsolete. But it still sounds very much like a bug in the byte-compiler and/or the optimizer to me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christian Lynbech | Hit the philistines three times over the office: R0.32 phone: 5034 | head with the Elisp reference manual. email: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk | - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1993 03:25:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: Subject: unsubscribe ullrich.bartels@informatik.uni-oldenburg.de To: litprog@shsu.edu (litprog@shsu.edu) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 10:19:52 CES From: Ullrich Bartels Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Ullrich.Bartels@ARBI.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE CC: ulli@legolas (Ullrich Bartels) unsubscribe ullrich.bartels@informatik.uni-oldenburg.de ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1993 17:43:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 15:38:54 PDT From: bos@mdd.comm.mot.com (Mary Bos) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bos@MDD.COMM.MOT.COM Message-ID: <9308062238.AA04637@foghorn.mdd.comm.mot.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Publishing WEB programs I've been reviewing my litprog mail and came across Lee Wittenberg's comment about publishing literate programs. How about in the LP newsgroup, we have literate programming submissions (non-proprietary programs, of course)? For those of us still floundering around in the various WEB's, reading other people's weaves may help us gain a style and code organization. Also, it might help those of use trying to sell management to try WEB to have more examples than what we personally produce. After all, Knuth said, "When was the last time you curled up with a good program to read?" -mary ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1993 13:34:52 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9308070949.AA20029@gauss.math.uni-frankfurt.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bos@MDD.COMM.MOT.COM Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs Date: Sat, 07 Aug 93 11:49:25 +0100 From: Anselm Lingnau Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lingnau@MATH.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Mary Bos writes: > How about in the LP newsgroup, we have literate programming submissions > (non-proprietary programs, of course)? For those of us still floundering > around in the various WEB's, reading other people's weaves may help us > gain a style and code organization. True. Maybe we should go for comp.sources.literate as well. Anselm --- Anselm Lingnau .................................. lingnau@math.uni-frankfurt.de Programming graphics in X is like finding sqrt(pi) using Roman numerals. --- Henry Spencer ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1993 13:36:49 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: SUBSCRIBE From: harvey.forman@spacebbs.com (Harvey Forman) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, harvey.forman@SPACEBBS.COM Message-ID: <6.29628.9.0CAE4350@spacebbs.com> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 16:55:00 -0700 subscribe litprog Harvey Forman Please subscribe me to your mailing list, Litprog. Thank you. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1993 16:23:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 7 Aug 93 16:21:23 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9308072121.AA10669@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, lingnau@math.uni-frankfurt.de Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs >> How about in the LP newsgroup, we have literate programming submissions > (non-proprietary programs, of course)? For those of us still floundering > around in the various WEB's, reading other people's weaves may help us > gain a style and code organization. How should we publish? Mailing 20 or 100 page postscript files to the whole group seems excessive. Perhaps a collection could be maintained at an ftp site? Preston ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1993 17:49:46 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1993 17:48:19 -0500 From: aubrey mcintosh Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mcintosh@CCWF.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Message-ID: <199308082248.AA13044@dumbo.cc.utexas.edu> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Mailing list or file server error CC: mcintosh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu HELP ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1993 18:53:55 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 8 Aug 93 19:52:33 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9308082352.AA08663@sgi84.ctc.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU CC: LitProg@shsu.edu, lingnau@math.uni-frankfurt.de Subject: FWEB '//' comments problem - FWEAVE of F77 code Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com Literate Programmers: I seem to be having problems with fweave of fweb.1.30 on F77 code. The "//" and "/*" comments are enabled in F77 with @n/ and \.{FTANGLE} is happy but \.{FWEAVE} has major problems. The comments are eaten as F77 code in \.{FWEAVE} and generate many variable entries in the index. The \TeX mode processing is not effective on the comments, either. I'm a newbie to LitProg, \TeX, \.{FWEB} and am stuck with F77. That combination does not identify qualifications to spot bugs. However, it seems the demo program with the v1_30 distribution (ftp.shsu.edu) has the same problems that my code does regarding the comments. I intend to use a bogus fix with Fortran column one commenting, YUK. Any suggestions are appreciated. BTW: I have found FWEB and web-mode for emacs relatively easy to learn and expect to see great benefits despite the added complexity of the method. Learning to master the method and \TeX hack is a more significant challenge. Benefits without mastery are apparent in the ease with which a comprehensible program document can be produced. Sincerely, Michael Koopman (mike) e-mail: koopman@ctc.com Concurrent Technologies Corporation phone: +1-814-269-2637 1450 Scalp Avenue telefax: +1-814-269-2666 Johnstown, PA 15904-3321 USA ICBM: 40-15'N-78-50'W ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 10:05:22 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 11:03:33 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, preston@cs.rice.edu Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs Message-ID: Preston Briggs writes (in response to Mary Bos' original suggestion): >> How about in the LP newsgroup, we have literate programming submissions >> (non-proprietary programs, of course)? For those of us still floundering >> around in the various WEB's, reading other people's weaves may help us >> gain a style and code organization. > > How should we publish? > Mailing 20 or 100 page postscript files to the whole group > seems excessive. > > Perhaps a collection could be maintained at an ftp site? Perhaps the .sources newsgroup could be used for announcements and the actual sources (dvi and PostScript) could be kept at a central ftp site. Which brings to mind a problem I've been pondering for a while. For those of us in a ``publish or perish'' situation, how do we convince our administrators that literate programs made available via ftp (or, indeed, articles in the same situation) are bona fide publications (as I would maintain they are). I've been toying with the idea of using a ``Virtual Press'' designation, but haven't actually done anything in that vein as yet. Any ideas? -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 11:28:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 11:26:52 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9308091626.AA23669@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Publishing WEB programs Lee Wittenberg writes: >Perhaps the .sources newsgroup could be used for announcements and the actual >sources (dvi and PostScript) could be kept at a central ftp site. In general, that sounds fine. However, there's some details that should be hammered out. The "source" of a web isn't really posctscript of dvi; it's the cweb or nuweb or noweb file. I think the typeset output will be fine, though some systems won't make .dvi files (are there any that can't make Postscript)? >Which brings to mind a problem I've been pondering for a while. For >those of us in a ``publish or perish'' situation, how do we convince >our administrators that literate programs made available via ftp (or, >indeed, articles in the same situation) are bona fide publications Well, I don't think they really should count as publications. The essence of a "publication", for tenure consideration, is the review process, right? Papers in unrefereed journals are not considered important. Same'll be true for most forms of electronic publication (unless there's a respected reviewing process). Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 13:36:45 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 11:34:11 PDT From: bos@mdd.comm.mot.com (Mary Bos) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bos@MDD.COMM.MOT.COM Message-ID: <9308091834.AA06481@foghorn.mdd.comm.mot.com> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Publishing WEB programs Lee Wittenberg writes: >Which brings to mind a problem I've been pondering for a while. For >those of us in a ``publish or perish'' situation, how do we convince >our administrators that literate programs made available via ftp (or, >indeed, articles in the same situation) are bona fide publications and Preston Briggs responds >Well, I don't think they really should count as publications. >The essence of a "publication", for tenure consideration, is the >review process, right? Papers in unrefereed journals are not considered >important. Same'll be true for most forms of electronic publication >(unless there's a respected reviewing process). Why not have a refereed "Virtual Press" or electronic forum? Reiterating my initial statement, "For those of us still floundering around in the various WEB's, reading other people's weaves may help us gain a style and code organization." Refereeing would help me better appreciate fine workmanship from first efforts - after all engineers learn from elegant solutions to a solved problems, why shouldn't LPer's? There could be two forums perhaps? One unrefereered and and one refereered. Mary Bos ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 14:24:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: mbrown@athos.cs.ua.edu (Marcus Brown) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mbrown@ATHOS.CS.UA.EDU Message-ID: <9308091920.AA23279@athos.cs.ua.edu> Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 14:20:20 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text Lee Wittenberg wrote: > > [Stuff deleted...] > .... For > those of us in a ``publish or perish'' situation, how do we convince > our administrators that literate programs made available via ftp (or, > indeed, articles in the same situation) are bona fide publications (as > I would maintain they are). I've been toying with the idea of using a > ``Virtual Press'' designation, but haven't actually done anything > in that vein as yet. Any ideas? > > -- Lee > My promotion & tenure committees want 'Refereed Publications' - which means that any publications, whether 'paper' or 'program', would need to be refereed -- In their eyes, if it is not refereed, it is probably trash. Somehow, we would need to set up a jury of referees who would review the submission, pass judgement on its merit, and suggest improvements/additions/... This refereeing is usually anonymous, although some journals also require that at least one member of the 'editorial board' personally endorse a paper before it is included in the 'Refereed, Meritorious' category. It may be good to have a repository for any submissions, whether refereed and approved, or not. However, for academic 'publication' credit, there must be a peer review process to certify the relative merit and contribution of each publication. I think that the development of a 'Virtual Press' (as opposed to a physical journal printed on paper) is a great idea, and I heartily endorse thinking and planning about how this could be accomplished. In the beginning, it would need support by some well-known, respected figures to establish the 'academic respectability' of this new form of journal. Unfortunately, I expect that this is more work than the average readership of a mailing list and/or newsgroup would want to volunteer for. -- Marcus Brown mbrown@cs.ua.edu Computer Science Dept, Univ of Alabama ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 16:44:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 16:41:00 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9308092141.AA13509@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: an example nuweb program The group I work with here at Rice is busy writing an entire optimizer in web. The intent is to eventually distribute the entire collection of webs (1 for each pass of the optimizer). The first passes should start filtering out soon. The rest should follow over a period of months. As a warmup, I put a small web out for ftp access. It's one I wrote to illustrate how a particular algorithm should be implemented. It'll eventually be incorporated as a chapter in a larger web; in the meantime, it serves as a reference for our group. It's written in nuweb, using a combination of latex and C. Both the web source and the final postscript are available. Use anonymous ftp to cs.rice.edu and look in the directory public/preston for the files multiply.ps multiply.w It's about 20 pages. Unfortunately, I believe it's too short to serve as a good example of a large program. On the other hand, it does illustrate one approach towards algorithm explanation. It hasn't been extensively reviewed, though comments are welcome. Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 17:50:53 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Aaron) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aaron@BCSTEC.CA.BOEING.COM Message-ID: <9308092245.AA06798@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 15:45:43 PDT Marcus Brown said: [deletia] > I think that the development of a 'Virtual Press' (as opposed to a > physical journal printed on paper) is a great idea, and I heartily > endorse thinking and planning about how this could be accomplished. > In the beginning, it would need support by some well-known, respected > figures to establish the 'academic respectability' of this new form > of journal. > > Unfortunately, I expect that this is more work than the average > readership of a mailing list and/or newsgroup would want to volunteer > for. Some group like ACM or a journal could probably do it best, since they already have the basic review mechanism in place. -- aaron@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (206)655-5369 |Aaron |Boeing Commercial Airplanes |PO BOX 3707 M/S 11-PT I know enough to know that I don't know enough. |Seattle WA 98124 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 05:15:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 10 Aug 93 11:56:03 MEZ From: Hans-Hermann Bode Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, HHBODE@DOSUNI1.RZ.UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE Subject: Re: FWEB '//' comments problem - FWEAVE of F77 code To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com Michael G. Koopman wrote: >I seem to be having problems with fweave of fweb.1.30 on F77 code. >The "//" and "/*" comments are enabled in F77 with @n/ and \.{FTANGLE} >is happy but \.{FWEAVE} has major problems. The comments are eaten as >F77 code in \.{FWEAVE} and generate many variable entries in the >index. The \TeX mode processing is not effective on the comments, >either. > >I'm a newbie to LitProg, \TeX, \.{FWEB} and am stuck with F77. That >combination does not identify qualifications to spot bugs. However, >it seems the demo program with the v1_30 distribution (ftp.shsu.edu) >has the same problems that my code does regarding the comments. I Are you sure you have version 1.30? I experienced that behaviour with FWEAVE 1.23, but in 1.30 the bug has been fixed as I can see from my own examples. Also, although demo.web has some problems, the comments are allright here, too. So, please check and send a short example if the problem still exists. Hans-Hermann Bode Arbeitsgruppe Systemforschung, Universitaet Osnabrueck, D-49069 Osnabrueck Tel.: (49)-541-9692545 e-mail: HHBODE@DOSUNI1.BITNET, hhbode@dosuni1.rz.uni-osnabrueck.de ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 07:33:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 08:06:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Joey Gibson Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, aix3!wjg@SUN1.EMA.COM Subject: Fweb 1.30 under Linux To: LitProg Mail-List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Has anyone gotten FWeb 1.30 to work under Linux (.99pl6)? It compiles fine, but when I try to weave demos/demo.web I get an IOT error (core dumped) error. I first ran configure and tehn compiled what it produced. I then copied the config.h and defaults.mk from boot/unix/ansi and recompiled. Same thing. Does anyone have any suggestions? Joey /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / wjg@sun1.ema.com / Joey Gibson - Computer Services / / Phone: (404) 261-5256 / EDS/Energy Management Associates / / FAX : (404) 848-7472 / Atlanta, GA / /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 10:39:39 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: Joachim Schrod Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, schrod@ITI.INFORMATIK.TH-DARMSTADT.DE Message-ID: <9308101538.AA19381@spice.iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de> Subject: Update of CWEB style is ready To: litprog@shsu.edu (Literate Programming discussion) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 17:38:09 +0100 (MESZ) Content-Type: text A new release of the cweb style package (0.4) is ready for distribution. Thanks to Michael M\"uller and Zden\v{e}k Wagner for their valuable input. FYI, I've appended the relevant parts of the History file to this mail. As usual, the cweb style package may be fetched from the Literate Programming Archive: ftp.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.55.75] directory pub/programming/literate-programming/c.c++ file cweb-sty-0.4.tar.Z (a compressed tar file) A diff from 0.3 to 0.4 is there as well. For those who haven't heard about this package: It adds LaTeX support for CWEB 3. Enjoy, Joachim ---------- excerpt from History: Version 0.4 [10 Aug 93] Added cwebarray.sty to the official release. Added cwebzw.sty as contributed option. Left shift operator (`<<') is now defined correctly. CWEB macro and program part in one section works now. Typed numbers now produce a subscript, as in the plain version. Cross references to section numbers do not output a period after the section number any more. Updated user documentation. Start new page on main section only if @*2 or higher (configurable). -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Joachim Schrod Email: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de Computer Science Department Technical University of Darmstadt, Germany ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 14:08:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 12:02:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Bass Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, chuckb@U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: How do I view .idx .scn and .tex files on SGI? To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii I built the cweave package and would like to view the files generated by the examples. I have access to postscript hardcopy and ghostscript. Unfortunately I don't have a tex veiwer (not one that man -k could find). Any pointers would be appreciated. chuckb ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1993 15:29:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9308102026.AA27701@mailee.bellcore.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET CC: preston@cs.rice.edu Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs Date: Tue, 10 Aug 93 16:26:14 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM > Which brings to mind a problem I've been pondering for a while. For > those of us in a ``publish or perish'' situation, how do we convince > our administrators that literate programs made available via ftp (or, > indeed, articles in the same situation) are bona fide publications (as > I would maintain they are). I've been toying with the idea of using a > ``Virtual Press'' designation, but haven't actually done anything > in that vein as yet. Any ideas? You don't, because they're not. More than anything else, they are like technical reports, many of which are made available for ftp these days. The problem with ftp is that the audience is unknown (but probably small), and there is no review process. Some publications, like SIGPLAN Notices, require only the concurrence of the editor for publication. Others require peer review. In my experience, peer review improves work enormously. I seldom spend time reading technical reports available by ftp if the same work has been published in a reputable conference or journal. SIGPLAN Notices may be a reasonable place to attempt to publish a literate program. So might Software---Practice & Experience, if the program met SP&E's charter of having something useful to offer to practitioners. Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:01:39 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 11:00:12 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, bos@mdd.comm.mot.com Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs Message-ID: Mary Bos writes: > Why not have a refereed "Virtual Press" or electronic forum? Reiterating > my initial statement, "For those of us still floundering > around in the various WEB's, reading other people's weaves may help us > gain a style and code organization." Sounds like a good idea to me. Although I do not have the organizational skills to run such a forum, I would certainly be willing to serve as a referee. Perhaps Mary would be willing to serve as coordinator, as no actual webbing experience is necessary for the job (although an interest is certainly helpful). -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 10:23:17 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 11:21:30 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, chuckb@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: How do I view .idx .scn and .tex files on SGI? Message-ID: Charles (Chuck?) Bass writes: > I built the cweave package and would like to view the files generated by > the examples. I have access to postscript hardcopy and ghostscript. > Unfortunately I don't have a tex veiwer (not one that man -k could find). > Any pointers would be appreciated. I had the same problem with a NeXT machine that we have. It turned out that there was a copy of ``dvips'' on the machine, even though ``man'' couldn't find it. You might want to try dvips or dvi2ps (?), both of which are available via ftp (from the usual places). The source code for the former (and probably the latter, as well) is also available, if you need to compile a new version. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 11:46:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199308111644.AA04563@err.ethz.ch> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: How do I view .idx .scn and .tex files on SGI? Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 18:44:57 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Lee Wittenberg writes: >Charles (Chuck?) Bass writes: >> I built the cweave package and would like to view the files generated by >> the examples. I have access to postscript hardcopy and ghostscript. >> Unfortunately I don't have a tex veiwer (not one that man -k could find). >> Any pointers would be appreciated. > >I had the same problem with a NeXT machine that we have. It turned >out that there was a copy of ``dvips'' on the machine, even though >``man'' couldn't find it. You might want to try dvips or dvi2ps (?), Depending on what Charles meant by 'viewer', he might also want xdvi, which displays TeX output on the screen. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "One fine day in my odd past..." -- Pixies, _Planet of Sound_ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 12:21:51 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 10:19:50 PDT From: bos@mdd.comm.mot.com (Mary Bos) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bos@MDD.COMM.MOT.COM Message-ID: <9308111719.AA15554@foghorn.mdd.comm.mot.com> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, leew@pilot.njin.net Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs > From leew@pilot.njin.net Wed Aug 11 08:00:34 1993 > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 11:00:12 EDT > From: Lee Wittenberg > To: LitProg@shsu.edu, bos@mdd.comm.mot.com > Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs > Content-Length: 590 > > Mary Bos writes: > > > Why not have a refereed "Virtual Press" or electronic forum? Reiterating > > my initial statement, "For those of us still floundering > > around in the various WEB's, reading other people's weaves may help us > > gain a style and code organization." > > Sounds like a good idea to me. Although I do not have the > organizational skills to run such a forum, I would certainly be > willing to serve as a referee. Perhaps Mary would be willing to serve > as coordinator, as no actual webbing experience is necessary for the > job (although an interest is certainly helpful). > > -- Lee > Mary replies Sure, if others will explain what the co-ordinator needs to do. mary bos ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 12:59:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 12:57:25 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9308111757.AA00735@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: How do I view .idx .scn and .tex files on SGI? Given the subject line, I think you want to run tex first. Tex takes a .tex file as input and produces a .dvi file. The .dvi can often be printed directly, perhaps using lpr -d zap.dvi or converted to postscript, via dvips -o zap.ps zap.dvi You really want to find some local tex expert to introduce you to all the tools. Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 13:01:00 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 19:58:25 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9308111758.AA19218@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bos@mdd.comm.mot.com Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs References: <9308111719.AA15554@foghorn.mdd.comm.mot.com> If there is sufficient interest, you may use the organization of Usenet University for the 'virtual press'. UU has already got a Virtual Campus on the MediaMOO at MIT. I have recently entered UU's board of directors, and we can talk about it (Mary, and who else is interested) any time, maybe privately. ----------------------- UU-NNA on the World Wide Web --------------------- For info on UU-NNA's info pages on www, please send mail to listserv@info.cern.ch, with the body of the mail containing the message send file://ftp.desy.de/pub/www/projects/Announce/UsenetUniversity if you already are on the WWW, try URL http://uu-nna.mit.edu:8001/ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 05:38:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 12:36:07 +0200 From: Martin Prange Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, prange@CS.TU-BERLIN.DE Message-ID: <199308131036.AA25095@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Usenet-Newsgroup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit YES,YES,YES ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 11:25:35 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 13 Aug 93 17:22:10 BST From: Dave Barton (visitor) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dbarton@COMPUTER-SCIENCE.MANCHESTER.AC.UK Message-ID: <9308131622.AA16005@panda.cs.man.ac.uk> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: A Related Effort I spotted this on one of the comp.lang newsgroups, and thought it might be of interest to the literate programming community. It might prove a useful adjunct to things such as noweb which do not attempt typsetting of their code. Dave Barton dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- Path: mucs!nessie!uknet!glasgow!pop From: pop@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Robin Popplestone) Newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.pop Subject: Re: Coding Standards ... we are in the 90's Date: 12 Aug 93 10:35:16 GMT Organization: Computing Sci, Glasgow Univ, Scotland Lines: 41 Xref: mucs comp.lang.c:65549 comp.lang.functional:3367 comp.lang.pop:511 When I started computing (in 1963) I thought a teletype was a wonderful device. Give or take the odd extra case, almost all computer scientists still think so - the presentation of computer programs is STILL determined by the ways in which electro-mechanical devices could put marks on pieces of paper, and for that matter, what is taught as the "theory" of computer languages is still too often about how a sequence of ascii characters can be parsed. Strangely, the rest of the world has moved on, and communes daily with bitmap displays and laser printers. *Pantechnicon* is an attempt to persuade programmers that they actually live in 1993. Essentially, it supports a mapping from the abstract syntax (AS) of a program to typographical abstract syntax (TAS), which is then displayed using the capabilities of a modern machine. TAS is loosely based on TEX, but of course is a datatype not a concrete syntax. The latest version, under development at Glasgow, and funded by HMG is, in a broad sense, object oriented in a modern (i.e. Hindley-Milner typed) functional context. It is intended to be used to present *any* programming language in a style which is uniform across standard programming constructs. Object orientation is implemented by *method maps* which have the type signature (SML convention) Identifier -> 'a Expr -> 'a Style -> TAS Uniformity of presentation is derived by inheritance of a standard suite of methods, for presenting constructs like addition, while-loops, conditionals. To define a presenter for a given language, a parser is needed, together with methods for constructs whose detail is usually specific to the language, like for-loops and function/procedure definitions. The default treatment of identifiers is to parse the identifier into _. Thus x_max parses into x and max. Both root and suffix may then be mapped into non-ascii characters. E.g. alpha is mapped into the greek symbol. This mapping is "soft" and carried in a Style record (my first attempt to present C had int mapped into the integral sign, since I was using a mathematical map derived from Latex...). Robin Popplestone. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 10:54:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 22:02:15 -0500 From: Charles Blair Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ceblair@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Message-ID: <199308140302.AA06838@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: cweave 3.0: problem with \UNIX/ While trying to print the treeprin example, I get an error message from TeX complaining about the control sequence \UNIX\ in treeprin.tex (created by cweave) not being understood by cwebmac.tex, which has a definition beginning \def\UNIX/{{ ... ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 15:42:54 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 16 Aug 93 09:23:19 EDT From: krommes@theory.pppl.gov (John Krommes) Message-ID: <9308161323.AA14227@theory.pppl.gov> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: FWEB on the SGI: processing // comments Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, Krommes@princeton.edu Recently Michael Koopman reported to this mailing list that FWEB didn't process short (//) comments correctly in Fortran on the SGI. This problem results from the SGI header file ctype.h, which violates the ANSI standard: it doesn't deal correctly with characters with the high bit set. See ftp/pppl/gov:/pub/fweb/READ_ME for the SGI fix. I'll deal with this more generally for future releases. --- John (Mail to krommes@princeton.edu is forwarded to krommes@lyman.pppl.gov == 198.35.4.70. krommes@princeton.edu Ftp files to/from ftp.pppl.gov, NOT princeton.edu or lyman.pppl.gov.) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 08:17:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 17 Aug 93 9:15:51 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, ceblair@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: Re: cweave 3.0: problem with \UNIX/ Message-ID: > While trying to print the treeprin example, I get an error message > from TeX complaining about the control sequence \UNIX\ in treeprin.tex > (created by cweave) not being understood by cwebmac.tex, which has > a definition beginning > > \def\UNIX/{{ ... > It looks like treeprin.w was developed under an earlier version of CWEB, when \UNIX was def'ed as \def\UNIX{{ ... The fix is simply to change \UNIX\ in treeprin.w to \UNIX/, and everything should work fine. Actually, this should be changed in the original at labrea.stanford.edu (mirror sites as well). There are probably other obsolete macro problems in some of the other examples. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 09:48:52 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <199308171447.AA10919@yggdrasil> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Progress on comp.programming.literate newsgroup creation Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 16:47:11 +0200 From: Matthias Ulrich Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH The discussion period for comp.programmin.literate will last one more week. The call for votes will appear next monday, and a copy, containing detailed voting instructions, will appear on this mailing list. Voting will start August 23rd and will last for 22 days and 22 nights :-). If you would like a copy of the newsgroup proposal, mail me. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch "I didn't get where I am today by being wise!" -- Lawrence D'Oliveiro ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 11:51:39 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sat, 21 Aug 93 12:50:11 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <9308211650.AA17686@flaubert.bellcore.com> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: tex/latex help wanted I'm trying to rig some nifty new index support for noweb, and I'm running into trouble because my TeX is rusty. I want to define a macro \countme#1{...} such that I can use \countme{...} where TeX normally expects a , e,g, \count255=\countme{...} \ifnum\countme{...}=1 page\else pages\fi So far the best I have been able to come up with is a macro that makes a global assignment to a counter, which I then use. e.g, \countme{...}\count255=\countmecounter \countme{...}\ifnum\countmecounter=1 page\else pages\fi I find this ugly and nonintuitive. Can anyone help? Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1993 03:33:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 22 Aug 93 09:38:49 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9308220738.AA05873@messua> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM CC: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Re: tex/latex help wanted From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM I'm trying to rig some nifty new index support for noweb, and I'm running into trouble because my TeX is rusty. I want to define a macro \countme#1{...} such that I can use \countme{...} where TeX normally expects a , e,g, \count255=\countme{...} \ifnum\countme{...}=1 page\else pages\fi So far the best I have been able to come up with is a macro that makes a global assignment to a counter, which I then use. e.g, \countme{...}\count255=\countmecounter \countme{...}\ifnum\countmecounter=1 page\else pages\fi I find this ugly and nonintuitive. Can anyone help? W E L L, the easiest way to let a macro represent a number is plain text. After \def\xxx{123 }, you can use \xxx almost anywhere where you can use a number. Suppose you want to assign it from a count variable called \foo. You can do this by saying \edef\xxx{\number\foo\space} I am using \space here to produce the number-ending space, because simply typing a space won't work (skipped after the control word \foo). Of course, you can write things like \ifnum\xxx=1 For your specific problem you have not given the circumstances, what \countme should produce from its arguments, so I cannot be of any more help. David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1993 03:33:18 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 22 Aug 93 09:38:49 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9308220738.AA05873@messua> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM CC: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Re: tex/latex help wanted From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM I'm trying to rig some nifty new index support for noweb, and I'm running into trouble because my TeX is rusty. I want to define a macro \countme#1{...} such that I can use \countme{...} where TeX normally expects a , e,g, \count255=\countme{...} \ifnum\countme{...}=1 page\else pages\fi So far the best I have been able to come up with is a macro that makes a global assignment to a counter, which I then use. e.g, \countme{...}\count255=\countmecounter \countme{...}\ifnum\countmecounter=1 page\else pages\fi I find this ugly and nonintuitive. Can anyone help? W E L L, the easiest way to let a macro represent a number is plain text. After \def\xxx{123 }, you can use \xxx almost anywhere where you can use a number. Suppose you want to assign it from a count variable called \foo. You can do this by saying \edef\xxx{\number\foo\space} I am using \space here to produce the number-ending space, because simply typing a space won't work (skipped after the control word \foo). Of course, you can write things like \ifnum\xxx=1 For your specific problem you have not given the circumstances, what \countme should produce from its arguments, so I cannot be of any more help. David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1993 13:31:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 23 Aug 93 14:28:55 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <9308231828.AA22210@flaubert.bellcore.com> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: tex/latex help redux CC: dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de, levy@math.berkeley.edu OK, sorry I didn't give everyone enough information. I'm trying to write a TeX macro that counts the number of elements in a list and produces the result as a , so I can write, for example, \count99=\countme{\\{a}\\{b}\\{c}} and have that be equivalent to \count99=3. Similarly I'd like to write \def\pageword#1{\ifnum\countme{#1}=1 page\else pages\fi} But I haven't been able to figure out how to do it --- the best I can do is have the macro make a global assignment to a counter and then test the counter. This is ugly. Here's the code I've defined: \newcount\nwix@counter \def\nwix@listcount#1{% {list with \\} {\count255=0 \def\\##1{\advance\count255 by 1 }% #1\global\nwix@counter=\count255 }} Here's an example use: \newcount\@commacount \def\commafy#1{% {\nwix@listcount{#1}\@commacount=\nwix@counter \let\@comma@each=\\% \ifcase\@commacount\let\\=\@comma@each\or\let\\=\@comma@each\or \def\\{\def\\{ and \@comma@each}\@comma@each}\else \def\\{\def\\{, % \advance\@commacount by -1 \ifnum\@commacount=1 and \fi\@comma@each}\@comma@each}\fi #1}} Any help would be appreciated. Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 01:18:48 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 08:16:37 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9308240616.AA01998@hathi> To: norman@bellcore.com CC: litprog@shsu.edu, levy@math.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: tex/latex help redux Date: Mon, 23 Aug 93 14:28:55 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Cc: dak@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, levy@math.berkeley.edu OK, sorry I didn't give everyone enough information. I'm trying to write a TeX macro that counts the number of elements in a list and produces the result as a , so I can write, for example, \count99=\countme{\\{a}\\{b}\\{c}} and have that be equivalent to \count99=3. Similarly I'd like to write \def\pageword#1{\ifnum\countme{#1}=1 page\else pages\fi} Uh oh. You have a problem. The way you use \countme here, it needs to work by expansion, and TeX does not do assignments or arithmetic when expanding. You Could do this by emulating the process of counting up with carrying by expansion, but I have to work on this. But I haven't been able to figure out how to do it --- the best I can do is have the macro make a global assignment to a counter and then test the counter. This is ugly. Here's the code I've defined: \newcount\nwix@counter \def\nwix@listcount#1{% {list with \\} {\count255=0 \def\\##1{\advance\count255 by 1 }% #1\global\nwix@counter=\count255 }} Personally, I'd prefer not to do this globally, and not in a separate group. If your \\ definition needs to be local, you can make the assignment nonlocal by ending with: \expandafter}\expandafter\nwix@counter\number\count255\relax} This will temporarily convert the number into literal form. However, instead of using \nwix@counter, I'd pass a counter name to be used to your counting macro. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 07:02:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9308241200.AA00906@truth.mitre.org> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM CC: leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET, preston@cs.rice.edu, jrv@truth.mitre.org Subject: Re: Publishing WEB programs Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 08:00:13 -0400 From: Jim Van Zandt Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, jrv@MBUNIX.MITRE.ORG In message <9308102026.AA27701@mailee.bellcore.com> you write: > >> Which brings to mind a problem I've been pondering for a while. For >> those of us in a ``publish or perish'' situation, how do we convince >> our administrators that literate programs made available via ftp (or, >> indeed, articles in the same situation) are bona fide publications (as >> I would maintain they are). > >The problem with ftp is that the audience is unknown (but >probably small), and there is no review process. Some publications, >like SIGPLAN Notices, require only the concurrence of the editor for >publication. Others require peer review. In my experience, peer >review improves work enormously. I seldom spend time reading >technical reports available by ftp if the same work has been published >in a reputable conference or journal. > How about publishing in comp.sources.reviewed? Incidently, it's a volunteer effort - have you reviewed something published there recently? (No, I haven't either.) - Jim Van Zandt ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 11:18:45 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 11:15:17 CDT From: kap1@tao.cpe.uchicago.edu (Dietrich Kappe) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kap1@TAO.CPE.UCHICAGO.EDU Message-ID: <9308241615.AA12468@tao.cpe.uchicago.edu> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Litprog Digest ``I can already envision the appearance of a new journal, to be entitled {\it Webs}, for the publication of literate programs; I imagine that it will have a large backlog and a large group of dedicated editors and referees.'' --- Donald E. Knuth, ``Literate Programming (1984)'' Seeing as this once failed (ACM ?) in printed form, perhaps an electronic form, somewhat later in the day, might succeed. I am interested in organizing/editing. I envision the distribution to be in source/tex/postscript form. Any interested parties should contact me by email. --- Dietrich Kappe kap1@wimpy.uchicago.edu ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 12:47:10 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 17:45:42 GMT Message-ID: <27394.9308241745@dlpx1.dl.ac.uk> From: Dave Love Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@DARESBURY.AC.UK To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: [comp.lang.dylan] The Igor Project The proposed `hypercode' system described in this edited version of a posting to usenet may be of general interest. (Or maybe not, as no-one else has sent it on...) ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Newsgroups: comp.lang.dylan From: sef@sef-pmax.slisp.cs.cmu.edu Subject: The Igor Project Nntp-Posting-Host: sef-pmax.slisp.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 05:04:48 GMT Igor is a new ARPA-funded research project in Carnegie Mellon University's School of Computer Science. I am the project leader, and it is staffed by the wizards of the former CMU Common Lisp project, plus a few new faces. We have been working informally on Igor and Dylan since last April, while finishing up some loose ends on CMU CL. As I announced earlier, CMU CL will still be available, and we will continue to support it, though at a considerably reduced level of effort. [...] The Igor development environment will be built around a concept we call "hypercode" (analogous to "hypertext"). Code in Igor will not be a linear string of ASCII characters, but rather a complex data structure linking together routines, class definitions, comments, specifications, diagrams, test code, edit histories, configuration info, and more. The programmer will be able to view and browse this hypercode at many levels of detail, and the code definitions can be presented in whatever order makes the most sense at the time. (In some ways this is reminiscent of the old Interlisp environment.) An extensive library of classes and functions will also be available, with librarian software to guide users in finding what they needs. [...] -- Scott =========================================================================== Scott E. Fahlman Internet: sef+@cs.cmu.edu Senior Research Scientist Phone: 412 268-2575 School of Computer Science Fax: 412 681-5739 Carnegie Mellon University Latitude: 40:26:33 N 5000 Forbes Avenue Longitude: 79:56:48 W Pittsburgh, PA 15213 =========================================================================== ------- End of forwarded message ------- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1993 15:40:15 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 15:40:26 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <9308241940.AA25502@flaubert.bellcore.com> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: publishing programs I think part of the difficulty in publishing literate programs is that the program itself must be of interest, and it is hard to find interesting programs that warrant treatment at less than book length. The kinds of things I have seen published in the past include algorithms, tools, and systems. Algorithms tend to be so small that any form of presentation works, although I suspect there might be a niche for complete implementations of complex algorithms and data structures. The implementation of tools tends to be mostly of pedagogical interest, and it is more likely to be found in textbooks than in journal articles. The best example is _Software Tools_, which I think is a classic of literate programming, although it predates the coinage of the term. So systems is where I think the action is. For example, I think Wirth and Gutknecht's book on the Oberon project could have been improved substantially by the use of literate-programming tools. Ditto Holub's _Compiler Design in C_. I can think of a number of ``how to cope with DOS/Windows/NT'' sorts of books that could benefit from such treatment. Unfortunately my friends and I don't write these books, and I don't know who does. Does anyone out there have experience writing or publishing books containing lots of code? Norman Ramsey ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 04:41:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 11:39:41 +0200 From: Matthias Neeracher Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, neeri@IIS.EE.ETHZ.CH Message-ID: <199308250939.AA22284@err.ethz.ch> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Vote on newsgroup creation [The vote on the creation of a newsgroup to supplement this mailing list has started, and you are welcome to participate in the vote by following the instructions below. However, try to make sure that your vote *ONLY* goes to the vote taker, and *NOT* to the mailing list. Unfortunately, a lot of mail software is configured to send a copy to the list by default -- Matthias] CALL FOR VOTES (1st of 2) Unmoderated group comp.programming.literate Newsgroups line: comp.programming.literate Literate programs and programming tools. Votes must be received by 14 Sep 1993 23:59:59 GMT. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only, contact dave@dogwood.com. For questions about the proposed group, contact Matthias Neeracher . A copy of this Call For Votes will be sent to LitProg@shsu.edu after the original Call For Votes appears in news.announce.newgroups. STANDARD VOTING INFO You should send MAIL (posts to a group are invalid) to vote@dogwood.com (just replying by MAIL to this message should work). Your mail message should contain one and only one of the following statements: I vote YES on comp.programming.literate or I vote NO on comp.programming.literate You may add a comment, but anything other than a definite statement involving the group name and "yes", "no", "for", or "against" on a single line may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. If you later change your mind you may also use send in an "abstain" vote in the same manner, using "abstain" in place of "yes" or "no". Standard Guidelines for voting apply - one vote per person (not per account). 100 more YES votes than NO votes and 2/3 of all votes being YES are the requirements for group creation. Votes will be acknowledged by email; a list of bounced acknowledgements will be posted with the second Call For Votes. A mass acknowledgement will NOT be posted. You may inquire about the status of your vote by emailing the vote-taker (dave@dogwood.com). After the results have been announced a complete list of the votes will be posted in news.groups and will be mailed on request (email requests to dave@dogwood.com). The vote-taker can accept no responsibility for improperly configured mailers. CHARTER Charter: A forum for the discussion of issues related to literate programming. (1) To share ideas, questions, experiences, and knowledge about the reading and writing of literate programs. (2) To discuss the merits of the currently existing literate programming tools. (3) To discuss the design of new literate programming tools. If a newsgroup is created, it will be mirrored to the existing mailing list LitProg@shsu.edu. For reference purposes, the newsgroup will be fully archived by the host sponsoring the mailing list. Background: What is Literate Programming? Literate programming is a programming technique invented by Donald. E. Knuth. A literate programming system can be characterized by the following properties: - The compilable program and the publishable documentation should be generated *automatically* from a *single* document. - The program can be presented in the order that is best for human understanding, regardless of any requirements of the programming language. - The program should be automatically indexed and cross-referenced. Knuth's original system, called WEB, generated Pascal code and a TeX documentation. Most tools relating to the TeX system have been written using WEB, and the TeX and Metafont programs have been published in book form. Today, there are Literate Programming systems for a wide range of programming languages and documentation systems. Specialized Literate Programming tools have been written for Ada, Awk, C, C++, Fortran, Modula-2, Modula-3, Pascal and Scheme, and generic tools exist that can generate almost any programming language (including Perl and sh). Documentation systems supported include TeX, Troff, and Word for Windows. -- Dave Cornejo There is nothing so subtle Dogwood Media as the obvious Fremont, California ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 04:53:41 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 11:49:36 +0200 From: ddw2@sunbim.be (Dominique de Waleffe) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ddw2@SUNBIM.BE Message-ID: <9308250949.AA16409@amadeus.sunbim.be> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: nuweb.el (1.15) For those who use nuweb, FSF Emacs 19, and auctex. A while back I sent a very early version of this mode on the list. Meanwhile, it has evolved and has become more robust and flexible. Basically it visits .w files in Latex mode augmented with a few commands which allow to insert scrap templates and to edit scrap bodies in the correct language mode. Hope some of you find it useful. I do.... Dominique ============================================== Dominique de Waleffe ddw@sunbim.be BIM sa Chaussee de Louvain, 510 Tel: +32 2 719 26 14 B-1930 Zaventem Fax: +32 2 725 47 83 Belgium ;;;------------------------------------------------------------------- ;;; nuweb.el --- major mode to edit nuweb files with AucTex ;;; ;;; $Id: nuweb.el,v 1.15 1993/08/13 06:59:35 ddw2 Exp ddw2 $ ;;; ;;; Author: Dominique de Waleffe (ddw@sunbim.be) ;;; Maintainer: Dominique de Waleffe (ddw@sunbim.be) ;;; ;;; Copyright (C) BIM sa, Everberg, Belgium 1993 ;;; ;;; This nuweb support package is free software, just as GNU Emacs; you ;;; can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU ;;; General Public License as published by ;the Free Software Foundation; ;;; either version 2, or (at your option) any later version. ;; GNU Emacs is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but ;; WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of ;; MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU ;; General Public License for more details. ;; You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License ;; along with GNU Emacs; see the file COPYING. If not, write to ;; the Free Software Foundation, 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. ;;; ;;; Bug reports , suggestions are welcome. I'll see if I can do anything in ;;; my copious spare time :-) ;;; DOCUMENTATION (short) there is no long version yet:-) ;;; To install: ;;; ; if your version of nuweb does not know about @% comments ;;; (setq nuweb-comment-leader "") ;;; ; if you want to activate the mode for .w files ;;; (push auto-mode-alist '( "\\.w" . nuweb-mode)) ;;; ; To load it ;;; (require 'nuweb) ;;; ;;; When called, nuweb-mode calls latex-mode and adds the following ;;; bindings: ;;; C-c C-z nuweb-edit-this scrap ;;; Edit the scrap point is on in its own buffer *Source* ;;; put into the mode specified by the buffer local variable ;;; nuweb-source-mode (defaults "emacs-lisp") or into the ;;; mode specified after @{ (on same line) the scrap body as ;;; -*-mode-name-*- ;;; The *Source* buffer is then put into Nuweb minor mode ;;; which adds two bindings: ;;; C-c C-z nuweb-install-this-scrap ;;; Which takes the *Source* buffer contents and puts ;;; it back into the web buffer in place of the old ;;; version of the scrap. ;;; C-c M-k nuweb-kill-this-scrap ;;; Which restores the old scrap, ignoring changes ;;; made. ;;; The original buffer is put in read-only mode until you ;;; call one of the two above functions or kill the ;;; *Source* buffer. ;;; C-@ nuweb-insert-scrap ;;; With no argument: inserts an empty scrap template at ;;; point. ;;; With an argument: prompt for scrap type (oDdD), scrap ;;; name and language mode. A new scrap is inserted and ;;; edited as if nuweb-edit-this-scrap had been called. ;;; ;;; CUSTOMISATION: ;;; ;;; Change language mode for scraps ;;; (setq-default nuweb-source-mode "mode-name-function(without -mode)") ;;; (setq-default nuweb-source-mode "prolog") ;default for all buffers ;;; or (setq nuweb-source-mode "emacs-lisp") ; current one only ;;; ;;; Support for nuweb comments @% (I have patches to nuweb for that) ;;; (setq nuweb-comment-leader "@%") ;;; PROBLEMS: SOLUTION: ;;; -) Requires AucTex Get it from /iesd.auc.dk: ;;; -) Relies on FSF Emacs 19 Upgrade or make the package ;;; back-compatible ;;; -) Functions are not well I should have used nuweb for this ;;; documented ;;; -) Bindings may not suit Change as you like ;;; every one ;;; ;;; WISH LIST: ;;; -) movement through nuweb items (outline? tags?) ;;; -) menu? ;;; ;;; CONTRIBUTIONS: ;;; Thorbj{\o}rn Andersen suggested the use of C-c C-z ;;; I used it to get into the *source* and as normal exit key. ;;; Also suggested the simple (no prompts) insertion of a scrap ;;; template, and other things. ;;; ;;; AVAILABILITY: ;;; Should be available SHSU archives ;;; or from ftp.imada.ou.dk (thanks to ;;; or from by email from me ;;; (require 'tex-site) ; I'm not sure that this is enough ;;; Extend the list of commands (setq TeX-command-list (cons (list "Web" "nuweb %s ; latex '\\nonstopmode\\input{%t}'" 'TeX-LaTeX-hook nil t) TeX-command-list)) ;;; allow .w as extension (setq TeX-file-extensions '("tex" "sty" "w")) (defvar nuweb-mode-map nil) (defun nuweb-mode () "Major mode to edit nuweb source files" (interactive) (latex-mode) (setq mode-name "nuweb") ;; Make sure the nuweb map exist (cond ((or (not (boundp 'nuweb-mode-map)) (null nuweb-mode-map)) ;; this keymap inherit the current local bindings (setq nuweb-mode-map (cons 'keymap LaTeX-mode-map)) (define-key nuweb-mode-map "\C-c\C-z" 'nuweb-edit-this-scrap) (define-key nuweb-mode-map "\C-c@" 'nuweb-insert-scrap))) ;; make sure we have our own keymap ;; we use a copy for in buffer so that outline mode is ;; properly initialized (use-local-map (copy-keymap nuweb-mode-map)) (make-local-variable 'nuweb-source-mode) (setq TeX-default-extension "w") (setq TeX-auto-update 'silent) ; disable untabify (setq TeX-command-default "Web")) ;; set this to "" if you dont have comments in nuweb ;; (I have patches to support @%) (defvar nuweb-comment-leader "") (defvar nuweb-last-scrap-title "") ; !!! look in above function (defun nuweb-insert-scrap(arg) "Insert a scrap at current cursor location. With an argument, prompts for the type, name and editing mode then directly enter the *Source* buffer. If no argument given, simply inserts a template for a scrap" (interactive "P") (if arg (apply 'nuweb-insert-scrap-intern (list (concat (read-from-minibuffer "Type of scrap: " "d")" ") (concat (setq nuweb-last-scrap-title (read-from-minibuffer "Scrap title:" nuweb-last-scrap-title)) " ") (read-from-minibuffer "Mode name:" nuweb-source-mode) ;; edit if interactive t)) ;; first, shadow the variable use for default value (let (nuweb-last-scrap-title) (save-excursion (nuweb-insert-scrap-intern "" "\n" nuweb-source-mode nil)) (forward-char 1)))) (defun nuweb-insert-scrap-intern(type title modename editp) (save-excursion (insert (format "@%s%s@{%s%s\n\n@| @}\n" type title nuweb-comment-leader (if (equalp modename nuweb-source-mode) "" (concat " -*-" modename "-*-"))))) (cond ( editp (forward-line 1) (nuweb-edit-this-scrap)))) ; only one of those in effect.... (defvar *nuweb-last-scrap-pos* nil) (defvar *nuweb-last-scrap-begin* nil) (defvar *nuweb-last-scrap-end* nil) (defun nuweb-edit-this-scrap () (interactive) (cond((or (null *nuweb-last-scrap-pos*) (y-or-n-p "You did not finish editing the previous scrap. Continue ")) (setq *nuweb-last-scrap-pos* (point-marker)) (let* ((begin (and (re-search-backward "@[dDoO{]" nil t) (point))) (offset (- (marker-position *nuweb-last-scrap-pos*) begin)) (end (and (search-forward "@}" nil t) (>= (point) (marker-position *nuweb-last-scrap-pos*)) (point))) (text "") (source-mode nuweb-source-mode)) (cond ( (and begin end) (setq *nuweb-last-scrap-begin* begin) (setq *nuweb-last-scrap-end* end) (setq text (buffer-substring begin end)) (setq buffer-read-only t) (switch-to-buffer-other-window "*Source*") (erase-buffer) (insert text) (goto-char (point-min)) ;; look for -*-modename-*- behind @{ (search-forward "@{") (if (looking-at ".*-\\*-[ \\t]*\\(.*\\)[ \t]*-\\*-.*$") (setq source-mode (buffer-substring (match-beginning 1) (match-end 1)))) (funcall (intern (concat (downcase source-mode) "-mode"))) ; go to same relative position (goto-char (+ (point-min) offset)) ;; clean up when killing the *source* buffer (make-local-variable 'kill-buffer-hook) (add-hook 'kill-buffer-hook (function (lambda() (save-excursion (nuweb-kill-this-scrap))))) (nuweb-minor-mode 1) (message "C-c C-z to use source, C-c M-k to abort")) (t (goto-char (marker-position *nuweb-last-scrap-pos*)) (setq *nuweb-last-scrap-pos* nil) (error "Could not identify scrap"))))) (t (message "Use C-x b and select buffer *Source* to finish")))) (defvar nuweb-minor-mode-map nil) (cond ((or (not (boundp 'nuweb-minor-mode-map)) (null nuweb-minor-mode-map)) (setq nuweb-minor-mode-map (make-sparse-keymap)) (define-key nuweb-minor-mode-map "\C-c\C-z" 'nuweb-install-this-scrap) (define-key nuweb-minor-mode-map "\C-c\M-k" 'nuweb-kill-this-scrap) )) (defvar nuweb-minor-mode nil) (make-variable-buffer-local 'nuweb-minor-mode) (or (assq 'nuweb-minor-mode minor-mode-alist) (setq minor-mode-alist (cons '(nuweb-minor-mode " Nuweb") minor-mode-alist))) (or (assq 'nuweb-minor-mode minor-mode-map-alist) (setq minor-mode-map-alist (cons (cons 'nuweb-minor-mode nuweb-minor-mode-map) minor-mode-map-alist))) ;;; The function is there but has nothing to do (thanks to Emacs 19 ;;; function for minor mode bindings ;;; It is here if anyone cares to make it Emacs 18 compatible. (defun nuweb-minor-mode (arg) (interactive "P") (setq nuweb-minor-mode (if (null arg) (not nuweb-minor-mode) (> (prefix-numeric-value arg) 0))) (cond (nuweb-minor-mode ;; turn it on ;; Nothin to do yet... t ) (t ;; turn it off ;; Nothin to do yet... nil ))) (defun nuweb-install-this-scrap() (interactive) (let ((offset (point))) (nuweb-back-to-pos) (delete-region *nuweb-last-scrap-begin* *nuweb-last-scrap-end*) (insert-buffer "*Source*") (forward-char (- offset 1)) (setq *nuweb-last-scrap-pos* nil))) (defun nuweb-kill-this-scrap() (interactive) (nuweb-back-to-pos) (setq *nuweb-last-scrap-pos* nil)) (defun nuweb-back-to-pos() (setq kill-buffer-hook nil) (switch-to-buffer (marker-buffer *nuweb-last-scrap-pos*)) (setq buffer-read-only nil) (delete-other-windows) (goto-char (marker-position *nuweb-last-scrap-pos*)) (recenter)) (provide 'nuweb) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 15:59:10 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 16:56:47 -0400 (EDT) From: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU (William Milheim) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU Message-ID: <930825165647.20200241@PSUGV.PSU.EDU> Subject: Internet Survey To: LITPROG@SHSU.EDU INTERNET SURVEY Adele F. Bane William D. Milheim The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley ________________________________________________________________________________ This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the Internet that are most used by the academic community. You have been chosen as a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate. Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published later this year. Please answer all survey questions. ________________________________________________________________________________ INTERNET INSIGHTS: A Survey We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself: How many years of computer experience do you have? _____ How long have you used e-mail of any type? _____ How long have you been an Internet user? _____ Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified. They are electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer. An estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily. This survey explores the use of each of these services. 1. E-Mail Use: How often do you make these connections? (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Private Email: _____ Discussion group(s): _____ (Specify) Usenet (or Netnews) _____ Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s): _____ (Specify) 2. Telnet Use: How often do you connect to remote databases? (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Games/Simulations: _____ Library Catalogs: _____ . Specialized Databases: _____ 2a. How frequently do you connect these Internet sources: (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week American Mathematical Society BBS _____ American Psychological Assn. _____ CARL _____ CITADEL _____ Cleveland FreeNet _____ Dartmouth Dante _____ Dialog _____ Dow-Jones News Retrieval _____ Dranet _____ EDIN _____ EPA _____ ERIC _____ FEDIX/MOLIS _____ GenBank _____ Geographic Name Server _____ International Centre for Distance Learning _____ ISAAC _____ Lexis _____ Market/Business Report _____ National Education BBS _____ Netfind _____ Nexis _____ Oceanic Information Center _____ OCLC _____ PENpages _____ RLIN _____ SpaceLink _____ STIS _____ TC Forum _____ Weather Underground _____ Webster Dictionary _____ Other (Please specify): 3. FTP Use: How often do you download files from FTP archive sites? (Insert appropriate number beside each item) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Computers and Academic Freedom _____ EASI _____ History _____ LIBSOFT _____ Lyric and Discography _____ NASA _____ Online Libraries Directory _____ Science Education _____ SIMTEL20 _____ SUMEX-AIM _____ U.S. Supreme Court Decisions _____ Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives _____ Other (Please Specify): 4. Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet. How often do you use these network guides? (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Archie _____ Campus-wide Information Systems _____ Gopher _____ WAIS (Wide-area information servers) _____ WWW (WorldWideWeb) _____ Veronica _____ HYTELNET _____ Other (Please specify): Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users. Please comment on the following: 5. The importance of the Internet to your work? 6. Advantages the Internet offers over other resources? 7. Barriers to using the Internet? 8. Your most memorable use of the Internet? 9 These questions will help us interpret the results of this study: Title: ________________________________________ Affiliation: __________________________________ Discipline: ___________________________________ Research Interest(s):____________________________________ _________________________________________________________ Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU by September 3, 1993. If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your e-mail address here: _____________________. :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 17:13:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 15:29:50 CDT From: hurst@vistatech.com (Dave Hurst) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, hurst@VISTATECH.COM Message-ID: <9308252029.AA11985@orion.noname> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@DARESBURY.AC.UK Subject: Re: [comp.lang.dylan] The Igor Project Hello! I received a copy of your posting to comp.lang.dylan about the Igor development environment, forwarded from the literate programming mailing list. > The Igor development environment will be built around a concept we call > "hypercode" (analogous to "hypertext"). Code in Igor will not be a linear > string of ASCII characters, but rather a complex data structure linking > together routines, class definitions, comments, specifications, diagrams, > test code, edit histories, configuration info, and more. The programmer > will be able to view and browse this hypercode at many levels of detail, > and the code definitions can be presented in whatever order makes the most > sense at the time. (In some ways this is reminiscent of the old Interlisp > environment.) An extensive library of classes and functions will also be > available, with librarian software to guide users in finding what they > needs. This parallels work which we've been doing for the last 4-5 years in this area. We've developed a technology, called HyperWeb(tm), which supports hypermedia-based software engineering and have spun off a product from that development work, called PCTE Workbench(tm). HyperWeb is an innovative hypermedia-based software development environment which supports development and maintenance activities. You can model software as a web of small components that reflects its natural design rather than the constraints of your programming language. The complex relationships between the various software artifacts---requirements, designs, specifications, code, test scripts, configurations, etc.---comprising a system are captured and represented explicitly. Frequently this knowledge exists only in the minds of the individual developers working on the software. Maintenance programmers spend much of their time trying to recapture this knowledge. With HyperWeb, this knowledge will not be lost when people leave a project. The system supports not just text, but documents of any sort, so diagrams, pictures, even voice annotations can be linked into the web. Annotation, decomposition, and refinement operations provide support for restructuring and documentation of the software artifacts. Annotations are an electronic version of yellow sticky notes stuck on a listing. You can annotate software artifacts to capture designer knowledge or to add comments for on-line code inspections. Decompositions are small conceptual units within a larger software system. Each decomposition focuses on clearly presenting its logic and omits irrelevant details. The relationships between these decompositions represent the natural structure of the system design. The decompose operation allows you to break up existing software into a smaller units during maintenance. The refinement operation allows you to create decompositions during new development. HyperWeb augments the facilities provided by Unix, allowing you to use the standard tools that you are already familiar with and to reap the benefits of the software web approach. Early on, we decided that trying to build specialized editors to support hypertext was a waste of time because nobody would use them. Programmers are a fickle lot and get real upset if you try to take away their favorite editor (or other tools), even if what you're replacing it with is ``better.'' The sophisticated tool integration framework provided by HyperWeb enables you integrate your existing set of analysis, design, and development tools, so you need only change your work habits minimally to get started. As you become more experienced with it, the benefits increase dramatically. Ultimately, large parts of your software development process can be automated with scripts customized for your specific needs. We have written a paper summarizing this work, which was published in SIGSOFT SDE 5 last December: "HyperWeb: a Framework for Hypermedia-Based Environments", James C. Ferrans, David W. Hurst, et. al. Another paper describing our work in building various hypermedia-based environments, including HyperWeb, with our PCTE Workbench toolkit: "Building Diverse Environments with PCTE Workbennch," Adarsh K. Arora, David W. Hurst, and James C. Ferrans. To appear at the PCTE '93 conference this November. I'd be very interested in knowing more about the work you're doing. Could you possibly e-mail me more information about it? --DaveH ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Hurst internet: David-Hurst@vistatech.com Vista Technologies, Inc. voice: (708) 706-9300 1100 Woodfield Road fax: (708) 706-9317 Schaumburg, IL 60173-5124 USA "Be excellent to each other!" ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 17:15:14 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 15:38:06 CDT From: hurst@vistatech.com (Dave Hurst) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, hurst@VISTATECH.COM Message-ID: <9308252038.AA12034@orion.noname> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: [comp.lang.dylan] The Igor Project From the cyberdeck of Dave Love: > The proposed `hypercode' system described in this edited version of a > posting to usenet may be of general interest. (Or maybe not, as > no-one else has sent it on...) >[...] > The Igor development environment will be built around a concept we call > "hypercode" (analogous to "hypertext"). Code in Igor will not be a linear > string of ASCII characters, but rather a complex data structure linking > together routines, class definitions, comments, specifications, diagrams, > test code, edit histories, configuration info, and more. The programmer > will be able to view and browse this hypercode at many levels of detail, > and the code definitions can be presented in whatever order makes the most > sense at the time. (In some ways this is reminiscent of the old Interlisp > environment.) An extensive library of classes and functions will also be > available, with librarian software to guide users in finding what they > needs. This parallels work which we've been doing for the last 4-5 years in this area. Our original idea was to combine hypertext technology with Knuth's WEB methodology. As a result, we've developed a technology, called HyperWeb(tm), which supports hypermedia-based software engineering and have spun off a product from that development work, called PCTE Workbench(tm). HyperWeb is an hypermedia-based software development environment which supports development and maintenance activities. You can model software as a web of small components that reflects its natural design rather than the constraints of your programming language. The complex relationships between the various software artifacts---requirements, designs, specifications, code, test scripts, configurations, etc.---comprising a system are captured and represented explicitly. Frequently this knowledge exists only in the minds of the individual developers working on the software. Maintenance programmers spend much of their time trying to recapture this knowledge. With HyperWeb, this knowledge will not be lost when people leave a project. The system supports not just text, but documents of any sort, so diagrams, pictures, even voice annotations can be linked into the web. Annotation, decomposition, and refinement operations provide support for restructuring and documentation of the software artifacts. Annotations are an electronic version of yellow sticky notes stuck on a listing. You can annotate software artifacts to capture designer knowledge or to add comments for on-line code inspections. Decompositions are small conceptual units within a larger software system. Each decomposition focuses on clearly presenting its logic and omits irrelevant details. The relationships between these decompositions represent the natural structure of the system design. The decompose operation allows you to break up existing software into a smaller units during maintenance. The refinement operation allows you to create decompositions during new development. HyperWeb augments the facilities provided by Unix, allowing you to use the standard tools that you are already familiar with and to reap the benefits of the software web approach. Early on, we decided that trying to build specialized editors to support hypertext was a waste of time because nobody would use them. Programmers are a fickle lot and get real upset if you try to take away their favorite editor (or other tools), even if what you're replacing it with is ``better.'' The sophisticated tool integration framework provided by HyperWeb enables you integrate your existing set of analysis, design, and development tools, so you need only change your work habits minimally to get started. As you become more experienced with it, the benefits increase dramatically. Ultimately, large parts of your software development process can be automated with scripts customized for your specific needs. We have written a paper summarizing this work, which was published in SIGSOFT SDE 5 last December: "HyperWeb: a Framework for Hypermedia-Based Environments", James C. Ferrans, David W. Hurst, et. al. Another paper describing our work in building various hypermedia-based environments, including HyperWeb, with our PCTE Workbench toolkit: "Building Diverse Environments with PCTE Workbennch," Adarsh K. Arora, David W. Hurst, and James C. Ferrans. To appear at the PCTE '93 conference this November. As it turns out, I've just unsub'ed from LitProg because I'm going on vacation for a week or so. But please CC any replies to this posting to me directly. I will be back on in about 10 days. --DaveH ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Hurst internet: David-Hurst@vistatech.com Vista Technologies, Inc. voice: (708) 706-9300 1100 Woodfield Road fax: (708) 706-9317 Schaumburg, IL 60173-5124 USA "Be excellent to each other!" ----- End Included Message ----- ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 18:15:51 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 16:06:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Bass Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, chuckb@U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Internet Survey To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii On Wed, 25 Aug 1993, William Milheim wrote: > INTERNET SURVEY > > Adele F. Bane > William D. Milheim > The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley > ________________________________________________________________________________ > This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the > Internet that are most used by the academic community. You have been chosen as > a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate. > Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published > later this year. Please answer all survey questions. > ________________________________________________________________________________ > > INTERNET INSIGHTS: A Survey > > We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself: > > How many years of computer experience do you have? _12____ > How long have you used e-mail of any type? _3____ > How long have you been an Internet user? _3____ > > Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified. They are > electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer. An > estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily. > This survey explores the use of each of these services. > > 1. E-Mail Use: How often do you make these connections? > > (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Private Email: __6___ > > Discussion group(s): ___1__ > (Specify) > > Usenet (or Netnews) ___6__ > > Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s): ___5__ > (Specify) > > > > 2. Telnet Use: How often do you connect to remote databases? > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Games/Simulations: __1___ > Library Catalogs: __3___ > . Specialized Databases: __1___ > > > 2a. How frequently do you connect these Internet sources: > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > American Mathematical Society BBS _1____ > American Psychological Assn. _1____ > CARL _1____ > CITADEL _1____ > Cleveland FreeNet _1____ > Dartmouth Dante _1____ > Dialog _1____ > Dow-Jones News Retrieval _1____ > Dranet _1____ > EDIN _1____ > EPA _1____ > ERIC _1____ > FEDIX/MOLIS _1____ > GenBank _1____ > Geographic Name Server _1____ > International Centre for Distance Learning _1____ > ISAAC _1____ > Lexis _1____ > Market/Business Report _1____ > National Education BBS _1____ > Netfind _1____ > Nexis _1____ > Oceanic Information Center _1____ > OCLC _1____ > PENpages _1____ > RLIN _1____ > SpaceLink _1____ > STIS _1____ > TC Forum _1____ > Weather Underground _1____ > Webster Dictionary _1____ > > Other (Please specify): > > > 3. FTP Use: How often do you download files from FTP archive sites? > > (Insert appropriate number beside each item) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Computers and Academic Freedom __6___ > EASI __1___ > History __1___ > LIBSOFT __1___ > Lyric and Discography __1___ > NASA __1___ > Online Libraries Directory __1___ > Science Education __1___ > SIMTEL20 __5___ > SUMEX-AIM __1___ > U.S. Supreme Court Decisions __1___ > Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives __1___ > > Other (Please Specify): > > > 4. Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet. > How often do you use these network guides? > > (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) > > 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month > 2=A few times 5=Once a week > 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week > > Archie ___5__ > Campus-wide Information Systems ___5__ > Gopher ___5__ > WAIS (Wide-area information servers) ___1__ > WWW (WorldWideWeb) ___1__ > Veronica ___1__ > HYTELNET ___1__ > Other (Please specify): > > > Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users. Please comment on > the following: > > 5. The importance of the Internet to your work? > > Very important because technical people with similar interest can be reached very rapidly and cheaply. > > 6. Advantages the Internet offers over other resources? > > It is cheap and fast and offers wide bandwidth. > > 7. Barriers to using the Internet? > > None yet... > > 8. Your most memorable use of the Internet? > > I was able to fix a dead workstation in about 15 minutes using email with to an "expert". After about 3 times back and forth we got it up and running. (this was at 1am on a Monday!) > > 9 These questions will help us interpret the results of this study: > > Title: __Systems Analyst________________________________ > Affiliation: _University of Washington__________________ > Discipline: _Mechanical Engineering_____________________ > Research Interest(s):____________________________________ > _________________________________________________________ > > Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU > by September 3, 1993. > > If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your > e-mail address here: _chuckb@u.washington.edu____________________. > > > :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :) > ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 18:29:53 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 19:27:05 -0400 From: Denys Duchier Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dduchier@CSI.UOTTAWA.CA Message-ID: <9308252327.AA04058@csi.UOttawa.CA> To: litprog@shsu.edu CC: norman@bellcore.com Subject: expandable \countme Norman Ramsey asked how to write an expandable TeX macro for counting the elements of a sequence; i.e. such that \countme{\\{a1}...\\{an}} expands into n. Here is a solution. It is rather more complicated than seems necessary because care is required to avoid running out of parameter stack too soon. --Denys % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % Denys Duchier, University of Ottawa, Aug 1993 % -------------------------------------------------------------------- \def\defmarker#1{% \def#1{\errmessage{Attempted to expand marker \noexpand#1}}} \defmarker\Last \def\fst#1#2{#1} \def\snd#1#2{#2} % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % \IFX{x}{y}{true}{false} % ==> true \ifx xy % ==> false \else % \expandafter forces the expansion mechanism to consider, and % therefore remove the remainder of the conditional, e.g. the % terminal \fi. % -------------------------------------------------------------------- \def\IFX#1#2{\ifx#1#2\expandafter\fst\else\expandafter\snd\fi} % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % \reverse{t1 ... tn}\continuation ==> \continuation{tn ... t1} % -------------------------------------------------------------------- \def\reverse#1{\reverseX{}#1\Last} \def\reverseX#1#2{% \IFX\Last{#2}{\continue{#1}}{\reverseX{#2#1}}} \def\continue#1#2{#2{#1}} % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % \increment{n}\continuation ==> \continuation{n+1} % -------------------------------------------------------------------- \def\increment#1{\reverse{#1}\incrementC} % Hack alert! \Ten is used both as a delimiter and as an extra digit. \chardef\Ten=10 \def\incrementC#1{\incrementX{}#1\Ten} % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % \IFCASE{n}{n=0}...{n=9}{n=\Ten} is a 11 way branching test, % according to the value of n as an integer. % \expandafter has same purpose as in \IFX. % -------------------------------------------------------------------- \def\IFCASE#1{% \ifcase#1 \expandafter\casezero \or \expandafter\caseone \or \expandafter\casetwo \or \expandafter\casethree\or \expandafter\casefour \or \expandafter\casefive \or \expandafter\casesix \or \expandafter\caseseven\or \expandafter\caseeight\or \expandafter\casenine \or \expandafter\caseten \else \errmessage{Fell through IFCASE}\fi} \def\casefst#1#2#3{#1} \def\casezero #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#1}} \def\caseone #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#2}} \def\casetwo #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#3}} \def\casethree#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#4}} \def\casefour #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#5}} \def\casefive #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#6}} \def\casesix #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#7}} \def\caseseven#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#8}} \def\caseeight#1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\casefst{#9}} \def\casenine #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\fst} \def\caseten #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9{\snd} % \incrementX is propagating the carry in the reversed list of digits, % i.e. from lowest to highest. % #1 is the accumulated list of lower digits % #2 is the next higher digit \def\incrementX#1#2{% \IFCASE #2 {\incrementXX{#11}}% 0 {\incrementXX{#12}}% 1 {\incrementXX{#13}}% 2 {\incrementXX{#14}}% 3 {\incrementXX{#15}}% 4 {\incrementXX{#16}}% 5 {\incrementXX{#17}}% 6 {\incrementXX{#18}}% 7 {\incrementXX{#19}}% 8 {\incrementX{#10}}% 9 {\reverse{#11}}}% 10 \def\incrementXX#1#2\Ten{\reverse{#1#2}} % -------------------------------------------------------------------- % \countme{\\{a1}...\\{an}} ==> n % -------------------------------------------------------------------- \def\countme#1{\countmeX 0#1\Last\Last} \def\countmeX#1#2#3{% \IFX\Last{#2}{#1}{\increment{#1}\countmeX}} ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 00:58:34 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9308260553.AA25081@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU> To: LITPROG@shsu.edu, WMILHEIM@psugv.psu.edu (William Milheim) Subject: Internet Survey Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 15:53:02 +1000 From: kcousins@rp.csiro.au Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@RP.CSIRO.AU INTERNET SURVEY Adele F. Bane William D. Milheim The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley _______________________________________________________________________________ _ This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the Internet that are most used by the academic community. You have been chosen as a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate. Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published later this year. Please answer all survey questions. _______________________________________________________________________________ _ INTERNET INSIGHTS: A Survey We will begin by asking a few questions about yourself: How many years of computer experience do you have? _15____ How long have you used e-mail of any type? _8____ How long have you been an Internet user? _2____ Three primary functions of the Internet have been identified. They are electronic mail, Telnet or remote log-in, and FTP or file transfer. An estimated 15 million users take advantage of these functions daily. This survey explores the use of each of these services. 1. E-Mail Use: How often do you make these connections? (Insert the appropriate number beside items below:) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Private Email: _6____ Discussion group(s): _6____ (Specify) Literate Programming, 'LitProg' Mathematica 'MathGroup' Usenet (or Netnews) _6____ Electronic journal(s)/newsletters(s): _2____ (Specify) DECnews 2. Telnet Use: How often do you connect to remote databases? (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Games/Simulations: _3____ Library Catalogs: _4____ . Specialized Databases: _2____ 2a. How frequently do you connect these Internet sources: (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week American Mathematical Society BBS _1____ American Psychological Assn. _1____ CARL _1____ CITADEL _1____ Cleveland FreeNet _1____ Dartmouth Dante _1____ Dialog _1____ Dow-Jones News Retrieval _1____ Dranet _1____ EDIN _1____ EPA _1____ ERIC _1____ FEDIX/MOLIS _1____ GenBank _1____ Geographic Name Server _1____ International Centre for Distance Learning _1____ ISAAC _1____ Lexis _1____ Market/Business Report _1____ National Education BBS _1____ Netfind _2____ Nexis _1____ Oceanic Information Center _1____ OCLC _1____ PENpages _1____ RLIN _1____ SpaceLink _1____ STIS _1____ TC Forum _1____ Weather Underground _1____ Webster Dictionary _1____ Other (Please specify): 3. FTP Use: How often do you download files from FTP archive sites? (Insert appropriate number beside each item) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Computers and Academic Freedom _1____ EASI _1____ History _1____ LIBSOFT _1____ Lyric and Discography _1____ NASA _3____ Online Libraries Directory _1____ Science Education _1____ SIMTEL20 _2____ SUMEX-AIM _1____ U.S. Supreme Court Decisions _1____ Washington Uni. Public Domain Archives _2____ Other (Please Specify): 4. Several navigational aids have been developed for the Internet. How often do you use these network guides? (Insert appropriate number beside items below.) 1=Not at all 4=About 2-3 times a month 2=A few times 5=Once a week 3=About once a month 6=More than once a week Archie _4____ Campus-wide Information Systems _2____ Gopher _2____ WAIS (Wide-area information servers) _2____ WWW (WorldWideWeb) _6____ Veronica _1____ HYTELNET _2____ Other (Please specify): Personal experiences can be the most helpful to other users. Please comment on the following: 5. The importance of the Internet to your work? Very important, both as a communication tool and as an information source. 6. Advantages the Internet offers over other resources? (Relative) ease of use, fast turnaround, low cost, high bandwidth 7. Barriers to using the Internet? I feel that the access to Internet resources has been hampered by a lack of comprehensive tools. It is one thing to expect hardened programmers and scientists to fiddle with the intricacies of some utilities (ftp, X11 protocols, network addressing stuff, etc.)... quite another to hand these things to the sorts of people who would baulk at a UNIX command line (doctors, artists, perhaps historians, etc.). 8. Your most memorable use of the Internet? 9 These questions will help us interpret the results of this study: Title: _Experimental Scientist_________________ Affiliation: __________________________________ Discipline: _Electrical Engineering____________ Research Interest(s):_High speed wireless local area_____ networking_______________________________________________ Please return the completed survey to: WMILHEIM@PSUGV.EDU by September 3, 1993. If you would like a summary of the survey results, please place your e-mail address here: _kcousins@rp.csiro.au____________________. :) Thank you for taking the time to participate :) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 01:02:55 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9308260554.AA25090@echidna.rp.CSIRO.AU> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch Subject: Re: Vote on newsgroup creation Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 15:54:41 +1000 From: kcousins@rp.csiro.au Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@RP.CSIRO.AU I vote YES on comp.programming.literate ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 09:07:48 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 14:06:29 GMT Message-ID: <20695.9308261406@dlpx1.dl.ac.uk> From: Dave Love Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@DARESBURY.AC.UK To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: publishing programs References: <9308241940.AA25502@flaubert.bellcore.com> There is at least one other book which is executable like the TeX and METAFONT programs: %A S.L. Peyton\0Jones %A D.R. Lester %T Implementing Functional Languages: A Tutorial %D 1992 %I Prentice-Hall %C Hemel Hempstead %O ISBN 0-13-721952-0. which uses TeX and Miranda. I've also seen Haskell articles which are executable, but I don't know if they have been published in journals. [Haskell-like (lazy functional) languages usually support an `inverse comment' convention which is enshrined in the language report. Program source is indicated by leading `> ' and everything else is commentary. Your (literate) program can then be fed either to the Haskell compiler or to, say, LaTeX asis.] The journal TUGboat has lots of literate programming, albeit only in TeX. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 10:50:23 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 17:44:59 +0200 From: coates@spectro.jussieu.fr Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, coates@SPECTRO.JUSSIEU.FR Message-ID: <9308261544.AA13686@lutidine.spectro.jussieu.fr> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Internet Survey Dear LitProggers, > INTERNET SURVEY > > Adele F. Bane > William D. Milheim > The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley > _______________________________________________________________________________ > _ > This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of the > Internet that are most used by the academic community. You have been chosen as > a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate. > Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be published > later this year. Please answer all survey questions. > ______________________________________________________________________________ Messrs Bane and Milheim made the mistake of putting the litprog mailing address in the `Reply-To:' field of their original posting. So if you just reply, it will come to litprog too. I don't to see what you wrote, so please make sure that you only reply to WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU if you choose to answer. Otherwise, have fun! Cheers, Tony. ________________________________________________________________________________ A.B.Coates (Tony) Laboratoire de Spectroscopie Hertzienne de l'ENS Universite Pierre et Marie Curie Case 74, 4 place Jussieu Email: coates@spectro.jussieu.fr F-75252 Paris CEDEX 05 Telephone: +33 1 44 27 44 09 France Fax: +33 1 44 27 38 45 "J'ai mes opinions. L'universite a ses opinions. L'intersection de ces deux ensembles est probablement vide." "I have my opinions. The university has its opinions. The intersection of these two sets is probably empty." ________________________________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 11:01:28 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 11:56:48 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9308261556.AA02833@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@daresbury.ac.uk.ae.ge.com.ae.ge.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: publishing programs I would not consider the `inverse comment method' literate programming. For one thing you do not have the freedom to write the code-segments in any order you like. If the compiler needs them in a certain order, then you are stuck! However this argument may be mute for functional languages. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 13:23:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 18:19:40 GMT Message-ID: <25346.9308261819@dlpx1.dl.ac.uk> From: Dave Love Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@DARESBURY.AC.UK To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: publishing programs References: <20695.9308261406@dlpx1.dl.ac.uk> <9308261556.AA02833@stnfor.ae.ge.com> >>>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 1993 11:56:48 -0400, ae1181t@com.ge.ae.stnfor (Osman F Buyukisik) said: Osman> I would not consider the `inverse comment method' literate programming. Osman> For one thing you do not have the freedom to write the code-segments Osman> in any order you like. If the compiler needs them in a certain order, Osman> then you are stuck! However this argument may be mute for functional Osman> languages. Indeed, in most instances (moot). The same with the LaTeX `doc' system. You might however, have, say, some long boring lexical code and want to relegate part of it to an appendix, as I've seen in one instance. The compiler does need the cases kept together. You could do this with a LaTeX hack to float bits around or elide some inside a comment envirnoment, as I've had occasion to. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 14:24:55 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 14:22:54 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9308261922.AA05524@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, d.love@daresbury.ac.uk Subject: Re: publishing programs Osman> I would not consider the `inverse comment method' literate programming. Osman> For one thing you do not have the freedom to write the code-segments Osman> in any order you like. And there's no automatically-generated navigational support (i.e., table of contents, indices, cross references). In fact, is it any better (or different) than ordinary commented source? Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 14:54:40 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: kotch@ulysses.att.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kotch@ULYSSES.ATT.COM To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 15:33:19 EDT UNSUBSCRIBE ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 16:00:56 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9308262059.AA16101@MATH.ORST.EDU> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, kcousins@RP.CSIRO.AU From: Paul Palmer Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, palmerp@MATH.ORST.EDU Subject: Re: Vote on newsgroup creation Date: Thu, 26 Aug 93 13:59:03 PDT >> I vote YES on comp.programming.literate you sent your vote to the wrong address ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 16:38:46 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: 27 Aug 1993 09:33:18 +1200 From: jham1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, jham1@CS.AUKUNI.AC.NZ Subject: Re: publishing programs To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <9308262133.AA26591@cs13.cs.aukuni.ac.nz> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Osman> I would not consider the `inverse comment method' literate programming. Osman> For one thing you do not have the freedom to write the code-segments Osman> in any order you like. Preston> And there's no automatically-generated navigational support Preston> (i.e., table of contents, indices, cross references). Preston> In fact, is it any better (or different) than ordinary commented source? I have used the inverse comment method (aka ``Bird tracks'') for many (smallish) functional programs, and find it *much* better than ordinary commented source, since I can feed the file through LaTeX (or _whatever_) without change---tangle and weave are no-ops! Having a conventionalised---albeit no-frills---means of writing ``executable'' reports should not be trivialised. This *is* literate programming, make no mistake. Tools that do code re-ordering are mainly patching up deficiencies in languages like `C; this is not a necessary feature of LP. Many visual programming tools provide for (the effect of) code re-ordering, but I would not consider these literate programming tools. Having said that, I must admit to using nuweb for larger programs. The gains are not enormous. -- John Hamer Email: J_Hamer@cs.auckland.ac.nz -- Department of Computer Science Phone: +64 9 3737 599 x8758 -- University of Auckland Fax: +64 9 3737 453 -- Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 03:09:14 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 09:59:15 MDT From: Zdenek Wagner Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, WAGNER%CSEARN.BITNET@SHSU.EDU Subject: Re: Internet Survey To: Literate Progaramming list , coates@SPECTRO.JUSSIEU.FR On Thu, 26 Aug 93 17:44:59 +0200 said: >Dear LitProggers, > >> INTERNET SURVEY >> >> Adele F. Bane >> William D. Milheim >> The Pennsylvania State University at Great Valley >> >______________________________________________________________________________ >_ >> _ >> This electronic mail survey is being conducted to identify the functions of >th >e >> Internet that are most used by the academic community. You have been chosen >a >s >> a member of a selected academic list service (LISTSERV) to participate. >> Results of this survey will form the basis of a journal article to be >publishe >d >> later this year. Please answer all survey questions. >> >______________________________________________________________________________ > >Messrs Bane and Milheim made the mistake of putting the litprog mailing address >in the `Reply-To:' field of their original posting. So if you just reply, it >will come to litprog too. I don't to see what you wrote, so please make sure >that you only reply to WMILHEIM@PSUGV.PSU.EDU if you choose to answer. This is not the mistake of the authors of the survey. It is just the way how LitProg is configured -- the same happens with all postings (unlike e.g. Info-TeX). > Otherwise, have fun! > Cheers, > Tony. >_______________________________________________________________________________ >_ >A.B.Coates (Tony) >Laboratoire de Spectroscopie Hertzienne de l'ENS >Universite Pierre et Marie Curie >Case 74, 4 place Jussieu Email: coates@spectro.jussieu.fr >F-75252 Paris CEDEX 05 Telephone: +33 1 44 27 44 09 >France Fax: +33 1 44 27 38 45 > >"J'ai mes opinions. L'universite a ses opinions. L'intersection de ces deux > ensembles est probablement vide." >"I have my opinions. The university has its opinions. The intersection of > these two sets is probably empty." >_______________________________________________________________________________ >_ ,~~~/ /` / /| /~~~ / / |_/ /__/ ' | / / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /\ | /| / /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~/ /~~~ / , / / /~~~ / / /~~~ / \ |/ |/ / /_/ / / / /~~~ / ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ' ' ~~~ ' ` ' ' ~~~ ~~/ ' ' ~~~ ' Zdenek Wagner______/ Some gateway between me and you may garble backslash. It will appear on your screen as ã due to problems with EBCDIC <--> ASCII conversion. It has already been corrected on SOME gateways. The address is obsolete. Valid addresses are: ^^ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 09:17:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: narsu@agni.hks.com (Uttam M. Narsu) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, narsu@AGNI.HKS.COM Message-ID: <9308271016.ZM9274@agni.hks.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:16:24 -0400 To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Question from a novice Hi, I taken a look at some examples of literate programming (Knuth's TeX book, and the K&R samples on 192.92.115.8) and I was wondering if one has to learn TeX to be able to do literate programming. It seems that many of the macros one wants to use can be hidden through the selection of an appropriate view in an extensible editor. Has anyone implemented a multi-window literate programming editor? (I just don't see our programmers being very happy about learning TeX in order to do literate programming.) Cheers Uttam -- Uttam M. Narsu E-mail: narsu@hks.com Hibbitt, Karlsson & Sorensen, Inc. Tel: (401) 727-4200 x 4442 1080 Main Street, Pawtucket RI 02860 Fax: (401) 727-4208 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:48:44 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 15:47:10 GMT Message-ID: <9343.9308271547@dlpx1.dl.ac.uk> From: Dave Love Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, d.love@DARESBURY.AC.UK To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: publishing programs References: <9308261922.AA05524@dawn.cs.rice.edu> >>>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 93 14:22:54 CDT, preston@edu.rice.cs (Preston Briggs) said: Preston> And there's no automatically-generated navigational support Preston> (i.e., table of contents, LaTeX, for instance, has \tableofcontents, \section, \index etc. and I've used them to generate hypertext documents for navigation around literate programs, albeit not for serious use. Preston> indices, cross references). You could get variable indices if you cared to generate them with an extra tool and you can use \index; you don't get the index from the current noweb either. Preston> In fact, is it any better (or different) than ordinary Preston> commented source? IMHO, yes, although based on experience with TeX and Lisp/Scheme rather than Haskell. (You can hack your Lisp reader to obey conventions about the input format.) For instance, the difference between the (extensive) comments in the source of LaTeX and the add-ons documented with the doc option is considerable, I think. The inverse commenting reflects the emphasis on the commentary rather than the code. It marks what's code and what's commentary if you want to be cleverer with extra tools, and there's no overhead if you don't. I can't imagine a book of normal commented code c.f. the Peyton Jones/Lester one. I think what you get from the typography is considerable, especially if you've got mathematics to present in the commentary. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:48:58 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 17:45:39 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9308271545.AA02162@hathi> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, narsu@AGNI.HKS.COM CC: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Question from a novice From: narsu@agni.hks.com (Uttam M. Narsu) Hi, I taken a look at some examples of literate programming (Knuth's TeX book, and the K&R samples on 192.92.115.8) and I was wondering if one has to learn TeX to be able to do literate programming. It seems that many of the macros one wants to use can be hidden through the selection of an appropriate view in an extensible editor. Has anyone implemented a multi-window literate programming editor? (I just don't see our programmers being very happy about learning TeX in order to do literate programming.) W E L L, strictly speaking the use of CWEB/WEB using the appropriate tangle/weave programs is straightforward, not needing any knowledge of TeX. The macros and constructs are particular to WEB, but the front end does not really require much if any knowledge of TeX (although you may not use characters like $&^#{} etc.). However, at least a knowledge of TeX formulas is to be heavily recommended, because one of the WEB advantages is that it is possible to include mathematical basics of algorithms in a readable form (And I do not consider forms like sin((2*PI*N/180.0)+phi)*xyz)*cos((2*PI*N/180.0)+theta) a particularly readable form). And of course, the inclusion of tables is a real pain in the ... If the current version of CWEB runs with LaTeX, than this at least is simplified. I agree, however, that the better you make the documentation part, the more of TeX resp LaTeX resp. whatever formatter is used, shines through. The current WEBs are fixated mainly on TeX because 1) Knuth sort of started the whole biz 2) They are ASCII input, good typeset output 3) freely available, so that the fixation does not seem as severe restrictive as orientation on a certain commercial product would seem. It would be easily possible to adapt those WEBs to other typesetting software, however, such advances would make the approach less portable probably. There are degrees, however. For instance, I think that a Wordperfect WEB would suffer from serious portability problems, although not necessarily from acceptance problems (although, I admit, I am TeX-spoiled and do not want to learn some stupid WYSIWYG system with slightly better than typewriter appearance. This is a topic for other fruitless "I have better SW than you" discussions, however). Basically, however, one could design sort of a "generic" WEB, which would, through the use of text processing definition files, produce output for dedicated word processors. I am afraid, however, that pagination and indexing would have to be included into the WEBs because much of the work here in current WEBs is done by TeX (and why not?). With a bit of discipline, sources could be kept somewhat formatter- independent, although leaving out formulas etc would seem too harsh a restriction for me. But better a literate program without nice formulas than none at all! So what's the point? Maybe you should try selling your programmer's TeX through the back door, show them that a WEB need not contain much TeX knowledge. Have at least one TeX guy ready to help doing formulas etc. Support the development of formatter-independent WEBs. BTW, LaTeX is not that hard to start with, and I think that CWEB 3.xx will support LaTeX as well (although I am not that sure). I AM pretty sure, however, that it would be preposterous to demand that all of your programmers should learn mastering plain TeX. This would be madness. But LaTeX should be on the tolerable side. It is unfortunate that there are not that much WEB systems around which support other word processors. Thus you are forced promoting LP AND TeX at the same time, a bit on the heavy side. David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:49:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 17:45:39 +0200 From: dak@POOL.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dak@POOL.INFORMATIK.RWTH-AACHEN.DE Message-ID: <9308271545.AA02162@hathi> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, narsu@AGNI.HKS.COM CC: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Re: Question from a novice From: narsu@agni.hks.com (Uttam M. Narsu) Hi, I taken a look at some examples of literate programming (Knuth's TeX book, and the K&R samples on 192.92.115.8) and I was wondering if one has to learn TeX to be able to do literate programming. It seems that many of the macros one wants to use can be hidden through the selection of an appropriate view in an extensible editor. Has anyone implemented a multi-window literate programming editor? (I just don't see our programmers being very happy about learning TeX in order to do literate programming.) W E L L, strictly speaking the use of CWEB/WEB using the appropriate tangle/weave programs is straightforward, not needing any knowledge of TeX. The macros and constructs are particular to WEB, but the front end does not really require much if any knowledge of TeX (although you may not use characters like $&^#{} etc.). However, at least a knowledge of TeX formulas is to be heavily recommended, because one of the WEB advantages is that it is possible to include mathematical basics of algorithms in a readable form (And I do not consider forms like sin((2*PI*N/180.0)+phi)*xyz)*cos((2*PI*N/180.0)+theta) a particularly readable form). And of course, the inclusion of tables is a real pain in the ... If the current version of CWEB runs with LaTeX, than this at least is simplified. I agree, however, that the better you make the documentation part, the more of TeX resp LaTeX resp. whatever formatter is used, shines through. The current WEBs are fixated mainly on TeX because 1) Knuth sort of started the whole biz 2) They are ASCII input, good typeset output 3) freely available, so that the fixation does not seem as severe restrictive as orientation on a certain commercial product would seem. It would be easily possible to adapt those WEBs to other typesetting software, however, such advances would make the approach less portable probably. There are degrees, however. For instance, I think that a Wordperfect WEB would suffer from serious portability problems, although not necessarily from acceptance problems (although, I admit, I am TeX-spoiled and do not want to learn some stupid WYSIWYG system with slightly better than typewriter appearance. This is a topic for other fruitless "I have better SW than you" discussions, however). Basically, however, one could design sort of a "generic" WEB, which would, through the use of text processing definition files, produce output for dedicated word processors. I am afraid, however, that pagination and indexing would have to be included into the WEBs because much of the work here in current WEBs is done by TeX (and why not?). With a bit of discipline, sources could be kept somewhat formatter- independent, although leaving out formulas etc would seem too harsh a restriction for me. But better a literate program without nice formulas than none at all! So what's the point? Maybe you should try selling your programmer's TeX through the back door, show them that a WEB need not contain much TeX knowledge. Have at least one TeX guy ready to help doing formulas etc. Support the development of formatter-independent WEBs. BTW, LaTeX is not that hard to start with, and I think that CWEB 3.xx will support LaTeX as well (although I am not that sure). I AM pretty sure, however, that it would be preposterous to demand that all of your programmers should learn mastering plain TeX. This would be madness. But LaTeX should be on the tolerable side. It is unfortunate that there are not that much WEB systems around which support other word processors. Thus you are forced promoting LP AND TeX at the same time, a bit on the heavy side. David Kastrup dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Tel: +49-241-72419 Fax: +49-241-79502 Goethestr. 20, D-52064 Aachen ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:53:36 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 10:48:48 CDT From: preston@cs.rice.edu (Preston Briggs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Message-ID: <9308271548.AA20587@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Question from a novice >I was wondering >if one has to learn TeX to be able to do literate programming. It >seems that many of the macros one wants to use can be hidden through >the selection of an appropriate view in an extensible editor. >Has anyone implemented a multi-window literate programming editor? >(I just don't see our programmers being very happy about learning >TeX in order to do literate programming.) One of the central features of literate programming is high-quality output. Most systems use Tex (or Latex) though there are some now that use Word and older approachs using troff. I think the use of macros (scraps, modules, ...) is orthogonal to the use of Tex. A fancy editor is nice, but not essential. About learning Tex, ... maybe there's 2 kinds of programmers: 'philes and 'phobes. The 'phobes aren't going to like learning anything new, but the 'philes will enjoy it. Lots of us really _like_ being able, finally, after all these years, to make our programs look nice! I'd try and hire more of the enthusiastic sort and weed out the others. Preston Briggs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 10:55:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 10:43:59 CDT From: bart@cs.tamu.edu (Bart Childs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@CS.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9308271543.AA20323@clavin.cs.tamu.edu> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: You need very little TeX I have looked at several dozen WEBs from a wide array of programmers. The sad truth is that nearly everybody that use WEBs will put in almost no TeX commands on their own. I say that is sad because just a few can be a significant help. A user can buy Art Samuels' ``First Grade TeX'' from the TeX users group for less than $10. It is 40 pages long and has more TeX than is used in 99% of the WEBs written by 95% of the users. Donald Knuth, Silvio Levy, and John Krommes are not in that majority. Some of the WEBs I have written use more TeX, but most don't. The most common exception to this is that I often include lists (item type commands) in documentation portions of the code. In these I will nest these [bgroup -- egroup]s and change the parindent and parskip to format them in a manner that is more suitable to my tastes. Our web-mode for emacs has almost no TeX support because it is not really needed. The AUC-TeX from Denmark has a great amount of TeX support and we might incorporate a little of it in the future. I was visiting with Ross Williams (the author of Funnel WEB) last month. I pointed out that I thought the lack of HLL sensitivity and therefore the lack of index features was a great lacking of his contribution. He readily acknowledged that Funnel WEB had short- comings but made an eloquent statement that I will try to do justice to. It was something like this: ``The great contribution of the WEB style of programming is that you can organize the code in the same way you think of it. I outline the code in a logical way and supplement that with documentation as I need. When I want to finish the details of a part, it is easy with the guidance I have provided and I simply do it. I rarely make a printed version of the code.'' I offer Ross my apologies for any inaccuracies. I strongly believe that `the use of TeX is an excuse (and not a reason) to avoid literate programming.' A one-day training course in TeX is far more than is needed and gives more formatting capabilities than is even possible with most WYSIWYG systems. TeX could be made invisible to most literate programming users. Bart Childs PS: ftp.cs.tamu.edu is down right now. Hopefully it is back today or early next week. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 11:08:55 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 12:04:31 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, jham1@cs.aukuni.ac.nz Subject: Re: publishing programs Message-ID: John Hamer writes: > .... Tools that do code re-ordering are mainly > patching up deficiencies in languages like `C; this is not a necessary > feature of LP. Many visual programming tools provide for (the effect > of) code re-ordering, but I would not consider these literate > programming tools. This is probably a bit of a flame, but I think I ought to say it anyway. IMHO the thing that makes LP ``work'' is the ability to have a program [in Djikstra's words] ``written down as I can understand it, I want it written down as I would like to explain it to someone.'' Code re-ordering is what allows this. John's point about visual programming tools is well taken, though. In many ways the LP and VP philosophies are diametrically opposed. I would suggest that code re-ordering is a necessary, but not sufficient feature of LP. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 11:22:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 12:18:37 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, dak@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Subject: Re: Question from a novice Message-ID: In response to Uttam Narsu's question, David Kastrup says: > For instance, I think that a Wordperfect WEB would suffer from serious > portability problems, although not necessarily from acceptance problems > (although, I admit, I am TeX-spoiled and do not want to learn some > stupid WYSIWYG system with slightly better than typewriter appearance. > This is a topic for other fruitless "I have better SW than you" > discussions, however). I don't know about Wordperfect, but the WinWordWEB system certainly suffers from these deficiencies. Although the output is much better than ``typewriter appearance,'' I find it much easier to use noweb with LaTeX, for the same results. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 15:36:09 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: narsu@agni.hks.com (Uttam M. Narsu) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, narsu@AGNI.HKS.COM Message-ID: <9308271635.ZM10452@agni.hks.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 16:35:05 -0400 References: To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET Subject: Re: Question from a novice I guess I was less than clear in my original message; I'm not terribly interested in a WYSIWYG system, nor am I averse to learning TeX (or the WEB constructs) (after all it's just another language), but I am interested in leveraging knowledge that I or my colleagues already possess. We currently use EMACS for most of our editing or source (much of the maintenance of our C++ coding standards is handled through emacs macros). So I suppose an emacs package (which I understand is available with FWEB) would probably do just fine. As a finite element analysis shop, just the ability to document/typeset equations with the code would be tremendously useful. uttam -- Uttam M. Narsu E-mail: narsu@hks.com Hibbitt, Karlsson & Sorensen, Inc. Tel: (401) 727-4200 x 4442 1080 Main Street, Pawtucket RI 02860 Fax: (401) 727-4208 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 15:59:20 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: narsu@agni.hks.com (Uttam M. Narsu) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, narsu@AGNI.HKS.COM Message-ID: <9308271657.ZM10492@agni.hks.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 16:57:43 -0400 References: <9308271548.AA20587@dawn.cs.rice.edu> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, preston@CS.RICE.EDU Subject: Re: Question from a novice On Aug 27, 10:48am, Preston Briggs wrote: > About learning Tex, ... > maybe there's 2 kinds of programmers: 'philes and 'phobes. > The 'phobes aren't going to like learning anything new, > but the 'philes will enjoy it. Lots of us really _like_ being able, > finally, after all these years, to make our programs look nice! > I'd try and hire more of the enthusiastic sort and weed out the others. And then there are those of us who love learning new things, but honestly don't have the time. That is the reality of life in a commercial concern with schedules and managers deciding whether we are phobes or philes. -- Uttam M. Narsu E-mail: narsu@hks.com Hibbitt, Karlsson & Sorensen, Inc. Tel: (401) 727-4200 x 4442 1080 Main Street, Pawtucket RI 02860 Fax: (401) 727-4208 ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 16:14:27 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 16:15:46 CDT From: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu (Stephen A. Fulling) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, fulling@SARASTRO.MATH.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9308272115.AA07794@sarastro.math.tamu.edu> To: LitProg@shsu.edu, narsu@agni.hks.com Subject: Re: Question from a novice CC: fulling@sarastro.math.tamu.edu >As a finite element analysis shop, just the ability to document/typeset >equations with the code would be tremendously useful. > >uttam To repeat what others have said (very well), (1) This is precisely the place where TeX is most valuable. (Accept no substitutes!-) (2) The basic TeX needed to set equations is easy to learn, and most of the WEB users do not need to know more TeX, provided that there are a few people around to help out in difficult situations and you are prepared to live with occasional infelicities of spacing, etc. Steve ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 16:20:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 23:17:38 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9308272117.AA23279@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, narsu@agni.hks.com Subject: Re: Question from a novice References: <9308271635.ZM10452@agni.hks.com> [[copied from the HyperText info on LitProg which I am maintaining-- for more, see ftp.desy.de:/pub/www/projects/Announce/LitProg.txt --Marcus]] Editing WEB files with the GNU Emacs editor ******************************************* If you are developing your WEB, CWEB or FWEB programs using the GNU Emacs editor, there is web-mode.el by Mark Motl ; the corresponding GNU Emacs mode can deal with WEB, CWEB and FWEB. It is capable of many things, including jumping to sections and modules, inserting (and previewing) index entries, hiding and exibiting the body of a .web file (showing the tree), inserting, quoting, and consistently renaming modules etc. It supports change files and journal files. It is especially useful when dealing with large .web files not to have to deal with monolithic files. Detailed information is contained in the User's Manual (PostScript). Here is a reference card (PostScript). The sources can be retrieved from here. The latest version should always be available via anonymous FTP from ftp.cs.tamu.edu, or in Europe from ftp.th-darmstadt.de as web-mode.tar.Z [in directory /pub/programming/literate-programming/Tools] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 16:38:04 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 21:33:39 GMT From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM Message-ID: <9308272133.AA13755@ravel.sli.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: code reordering Lee Wittenberg, responding to John Hamer, wrote: I would suggest that code re-ordering is a necessary, but not sufficient feature of LP. Although this sounds plausible, it is unsupported by empirical evidence. My tool does not reorder code; this seemed to be a serious obstacle precisely once. On that occasion, I just sent the various parts to separate files and catenated them together in the build. The same holds for macro processing: it isn't part of the tool, and this tool was created by adding features as they became needed. If you need macro processing, you can write your code in a macro language like m1; this is simple because the tool is independent of source language. I strongly believe LP tools should not have intrinsic language dependencies; what is the point of hobbling yourself this way? At a minimum, most of the LP texts I write emit both source code and UNIX makefiles. Frequently, they emit shell, awk, or sed scripts as well, and sometimes it is necessary to include C or assembly code in a program that is mainly written in (say) Ada or Pascal. What is done well by other tools need not be part of a LP processor. Code re-ordering can be useful, but it is by no means necessary. Michael F. Yoder [mfy@sli.com] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 18:19:25 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 19:18:18 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9308272318.AA03629@sgi84.ctc.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: code reordering Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com Michael F. Yoder wrote in High Level Language: > I would suggest that code re-ordering is a necessary, but not > sufficient feature of LP. > > Although this sounds plausible, it is unsupported by empirical evidence. My > tool does not reorder code; this seemed to be a serious obstacle precisely > once. On that occasion, I just sent the various parts to separate files and > catenated them together in the build. As a newbie I find high level language sensitivity and code reordering a great benefit. Code reordering by the web processor may not be necessary for literate programming but it seems much easier than your alternatives. Certainly we must agree that the order of code which makes the compilers happy is unlikely to be the same as that which allows the literate programmer to enlighten her audience. > What is done well by other tools need not be part of a LP processor. Code > re-ordering can be useful, but it is by no means necessary. Tools that can't parse code would have difficulty providing the pretty printing capability which greatly enhances the appearance and improves readability of the code scraps, IMNHO. To perform the pretty printing and not provide for code reordering seems like going out in the rain with an umbrella full of holes. To add many macro executives or file creating directives seems like a lot more work than the programmer should like to manage, especially in the light of relatively simple techniques for code reordering with tools like FWEB. Michael Koopman (mike) e-mail: koopman@ctc.com Concurrent Technologies Corporation phone: +1-814-269-2637 1450 Scalp Avenue telefax: +1-814-269-2666 Johnstown, PA 15904-3321 USA ICBM: 40-15'N-78-50'W ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 18:44:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 19:38:39 -0400 (EDT) From: THEBRIT@delphi.com Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, THEBRIT@DELPHI.COM Subject: To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Message-ID: <01H292JI7L8I8ZE5ZP@delphi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT UNSUBSCRIBE ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 22:20:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 23:17:51 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@BELLCORE.COM Message-ID: <9308280317.AA18082@flaubert.bellcore.com> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: TeX and literate programming CC: carla@oracorp.com There's been much discussion of whether TeX is essential to literate programming, and if so, why. Ignoring the argument that TeX is used because it produces superior documents, I think there are two reasons: one sociological and one technical (and partly sociological). The sociological reason is that literate programming has achieved what credibility it has primarily because of the enthusiastic support of Don Knuth. People who are willing to follow Don out on a limb to practice literate programming are also likely to follow him in the use of TeX---after all, there is a much stronger consensus about the value of TeX in its arena. The technical reason is that all literate-programming tools have to manipulate an underlying representation of a document to produce code. Of lesser stature are the non-reordering tools like doc.sty and cnoweb, which manipulate code to produce a docuement. In both cases life is infinitely easier if the underlying representation is well documented, and preferably ASCII. (The only counterexample I know is Lee Wittenberg's WinWordWeb, which I am eager to hear more about.) Before TeX83, there were quite a few of these things around: Scribe, troff, Waterloo/IBM Script. (I don't count gml since that was and is a markup language, not a formatter.) Scribe is dead (?), and heaven knows what goes on in the IBM world, but troff is certainly alive and well in large parts of the old Bell organization. So why don't literate programmers use troff? They used to---one of the first non-Knuth tools was Harold Thimbleby's cweb with troff. One answer is that many literate programmers are young people---the young are always more willing to try new things---and I don't think many young people are learning troff these days. TeX is too much better. Another is that I've posed the question wrong; it should be ``why don't troff users write literate programs?'' Why, because they have no tools. It's bad enough to try something new, but it's worse if you have to jettison your years of troff experience. I have a standing offer open to any troff user interested in literate programming: if you will show me how to get the stuff to look right on the page, and if you promise to write at least one literate program, I will write a troff back end for noweb. Tell your friends. Norman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 19:04:43 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 20:00:42 -0400 From: ae1181t@stnfor.ae.ge.com (Osman F Buyukisik) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ae1181t@STNFOR.AE.GE.COM Message-ID: <9308300000.AA09070@stnfor.ae.ge.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@sli.com.ae.ge.com.ae.ge.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: code reordering It seems like some people use LP to pretty print/document the code. I think it can be very useful in the design phase as a PDL if the LP tool can reorder code. To some just documenting (even with the aid of TeX) seems to be enough to be an LP tool. I disagree. It also has to be language independent as sed, make and other `languages' are used often, and reorder code, files, and has a minumum indexing feature. However, this area seems to be wide open to personal feelings. Osman ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 01:58:22 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 08:56:43 +0200 From: Christian Lynbech Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Message-ID: <199308300656.AA06824@platanus> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, narsu@AGNI.HKS.COM Subject: Re: Question from a novice Let me just repeat what many people has already said. Learning the basic use of TeX or LaTeX is not very complicated. I only really know LaTeX, but the basics are in fact quite easy. I claim that a few hours of reading/training, and a copy of the refcard, you can start produce nice looking documents. Beware, however, that disagreeing with the decisions made by TeX/LaTeX, in spacing or placement of things like figures, may need considerable experience, if you want to have your way. Too many newcomers are frustrated by this, in my experience at least. I, as a happy LaTeX'er, find this a feature rather than a problem, far outweighed by the power. Alternatively, you may want to check out the FunnelWEB package. I haven't looked much into it myself, but I vaguely remember from my browsing through the manual, that it sort of supports formatting, in the sense that it provides a simple set of formatting commands. The nice part is that it can get you started formatting very quick (and in a TeX indepedent way). The bad part is that you are likely to find the possibilities rather limited. But if your requirements aren't fancy, perhaps this would be something for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christian Lynbech | Hit the philistines three times over the office: R0.32 phone: 5034 | head with the Elisp reference manual. email: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk | - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 08:39:53 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: dentato@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, dentato@MINERVA.ING.UNIROMA1.IT Message-ID: <9308301337.AA13161@minerva.ing.uniroma1.it> Subject: Nuweb for Mac To: litprog@shsu.edu Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 15:37:41 +0100 (DFT) Content-Type: text A friend of mine is intersted about nuweb for Macintosh after I showed him the Unix version. I remember someone ported nuweb on Mac, is it possible to have a copy of it? Thanks. ___ __ Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" //_/// \ Dipartimento di Informatica e Sistemistica // \//__/ Via Buonarroti 12 00184 Roma (Italy) Remo Dentato tel: +39-6-4873689 fax: +39-6-4873628 email: dentato@cadgroup.ing.uniroma1.it ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 09:40:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 30 Aug 93 10:38:53 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, bart@cs.tamu.edu Subject: Re: You need very little TeX Message-ID: Bart Childs writes: > I have looked at several dozen WEBs from a wide array of programmers. > The sad truth is that nearly everybody that use WEBs will put in > almost no TeX commands on their own. I say that is sad because just > a few can be a significant help. I can support this as well. The webs my colleagues at Tipton Cole + Co. are writing use a minimal amount, mostly from a template I provided that includes things like PVCS support, tables of contents, etc. Whenever I get a chance, I try to point out an interesting TeX/LaTeXism that might be helpful. I also try to exercise TeX a bit more than necessary in my webs to take advantage of the ``Gee whiz, can I do that, too?'' factor. > A user can buy Art Samuels' ``First Grade TeX'' from the TeX users > group for less than $10. It is 40 pages long and has more TeX than > is used in 99% of the WEBs written by 95% of the users. I would also add Michael Doob's excellent _A Gentle Introduction to TeX_ to this list (sic). It's freely available over the Internet; I got my copy from pip.shsu.edu. > I strongly believe that `the use of TeX is an excuse (and not a > reason) to avoid literate programming.' A one-day training course > in TeX is far more than is needed and gives more formatting > capabilities than is even possible with most WYSIWYG systems. > TeX could be made invisible to most literate programming users. Again, I agree completely. The necessary TeX/LaTeX commands (for noweb use, at least) take less than a page -- less than half a page, actually, since this list includes the \section commands, which are not _absolutely_ necessary (but incredibly useful). I've found that it only takes about an hour to teach someone the basics. -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 11:58:42 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: sboyle@wv.MENTORG.COM (Sean Boyle x1542) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sboyle@WV.MENTORG.COM Date: Mon, 30 Aug 93 09:54:51 -0700 Message-ID: <9308301654.AA11069@porkface.mentorg.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@bellcore.com CC: litprog@SHSU.edu, carla@oracorp.com Subject: TeX and literate programming To be fair, it should be pointed out that [nt]roff has one strength over TeX, the ability to produce straight text output. I am often required to send out a document for review via Email. With TeX, the only choices I have are sending out the source file, the DVI file (uuencoded) or PostScript. Any of the above choices are clearly unacceptable to most of my peers and management. Yes, I know about dvi2tty and such utilities. Theoutput fromthese isunacceptable, probably dueto kerningit lookslike this... Without a *lot* of mucking around with the text, it looks terrible. Nroff does a fair job of coming up with a straight text representation. BTW, I still use TeX (until my manager kills me). X-Listname: Literate Programming Discussion List Warnings-To: <> Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 23:17:51 -0400 From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@bellcore.com . . . So why don't literate programmers use troff? They used to---one of the first non-Knuth tools was Harold Thimbleby's cweb with troff. One answer is that many literate programmers are young people---the young are always more willing to try new things---and I don't think many young people are learning troff these days. TeX is too much better. Another is that I've posed the question wrong; it should be ``why don't troff users write literate programs?'' Why, because they have no tools. It's bad enough to try something new, but it's worse if you have to jettison your years of troff experience. . . . ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 18:20:55 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 30 Aug 93 19:19:21 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9308302319.AA20226@sgi84.ctc.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sboyle@WV.MENTORG.COM CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu, norman@bellcore.com, litprog@SHSU.edu, carla@oracorp.com Subject: TeX and literate programming Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com Sean Boyle wrote to the good readers of LitProg: > To be fair, it should be pointed out that [nt]roff has one strength > over TeX, the ability to produce straight text output. I am often > required to send out a document for review via Email. With TeX, the > only choices I have are sending out the source file, the DVI file > (uuencoded) or PostScript. ... Does some TeX hack know of a good detex utility? I have discovered the utilities described in the following excerpt from the README file found in the examples directory under ftp/cweb on anon ftp at labrea.stanford.edu. Their purpose is not to remove TeX and leave a semblance of formatting, though. "The extex and wordtest programs, by Don Knuth, are useful spellcheckers. After "make extex.run" say also "ln extex excweb"; this gives you two filter programs, extex and excweb, that remove extraneous material from TeX and CWEB source files, respectively. To use them, you can say for example cat foo.w | excweb | spell (or replace "cat foo.w" with "wmerge foo.w bar.ch"). A similar pipeline for TeX files would be cat foo.tex | extex | spell Even better is to replace "spell" by "wordtest /usr/local/lib/dict/words", if you have a suitable dictionary. One such dictionary in the public domain can be found in directory ~ftp/pub/dict at labrea.stanford.edu, available via anonymous ftp. To make your own dictionary from given ones, cat dict1 dict2 dict3 dict4 | wordtest > words is quick and effective. See the documentation of wordtest for more info." > From: norman@bellcore.com (Norman Ramsey) ... > So why don't literate programmers use troff? They used to---one of ... > no tools. It's bad enough to try something new, but it's worse if you > have to jettison your years of troff experience. Know of no help with this, except, doesn't all that [nt]roff knowledge easily map over to the TeX domain? Perhaps you need the wetware upgrade? ;-) Michael Koopman (mike) e-mail: koopman@ctc.com Concurrent Technologies Corporation phone: +1-814-269-2637 1450 Scalp Avenue telefax: +1-814-269-2666 Johnstown, PA 15904-3321 USA ICBM: 40-15'N-78-50'W ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 21:35:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Mon, 30 Aug 93 21:28:02 CDT From: bart@cs.tamu.edu (Bart Childs) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@CS.TAMU.EDU Message-ID: <9308310228.AA01348@clavin.cs.tamu.edu> To: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: One more comment on troff Re: Thimbleby's paper on cweb using C and troff. It is not worth my time to go back and read it carefully, but I recall a point made in that paper is that the limitations of troff were one of the most significant problems in creating the system. If having something that can produce a screen oriented version is that important, doesn't texinfo do that to some extent? I would rather work on the future rather than ... TeX and laser printers are so reasonably priced that I wonder what the gain is? Cheers Bart Childs ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 02:16:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 09:11:53 +0200 From: Christian Lynbech Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Message-ID: <199308310711.AA07976@platanus> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@cs.tamu.edu CC: litprog@shsu.edu Subject: Re: One more comment on troff Texinfo should do the trick on straight text output. There is even the added feature of being able to produce an info file, i.e. a hypertext representation of the program! I have had this idea in the back of my head for quite some time, but I haven't had time to investigate it much. Certainly, producing a *usefull* program.info file, takes some care and consideration. I am not much of a texinfo hacker myself, but since texinfo is a juiced down version of TeX (sort of), wouldn't that also solve some of the learning problems reported by people. Some of the principle behind texinfo (as I understand it), is exactly to provide those macros you need and use, rather than the full power of TeX, enabling a precise and nice looking ascii equivalent. There is also a standalone version of texinfo (available from GNU), so you can use it without having neither TeX nor emacs. Incidently, there is also a LaTeXinfo package, for those already into LaTeX. I have had a chance to look into it, and it feels pretty complete, i.e. it has most of the stuff I tend to be using all the time, including some list making environments. More important perhaps, it looks as ordinary LaTeX, you write \section rather than @section and \begin{description}\end{description} rather than whatever the Texinfo equivalent looks like. The downside is that its maintainance situation is a bit in the dark. There was a discussion on gnu.misc.discuss about how to reach the author, and apparently nobody had succeeded. But the package works pretty well as it stands. I've got a copy of what appeared to be the latest version at the time, if anybody is interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christian Lynbech | Hit the philistines three times over the office: R0.32 phone: 5034 | head with the Elisp reference manual. email: lynbech@daimi.aau.dk | - petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 03:56:14 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu From: sven@robots.oxford.ac.uk Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sven@ROBOTS.OXFORD.AC.UK Message-ID: <9308310852.AA04136@hotspur.robots.ox.ac.uk> Subject: texinfo To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, bart@CS.TAMU.EDU Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 9:52:08 BST Bart Childs wrote > If having something that can produce a screen oriented version is that > important, doesn't texinfo do that to some extent? Ghee, *what* is texinfo? Thanks, Sven (Sven Utcke) ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 04:12:16 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 11:10:18 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9308310910.AA08445@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@daimi.aau.dk Subject: Re: One more comment on troff References: <199308310711.AA07976@platanus> <9308310228.AA01348@clavin.cs.tamu.edu> Since HyperText is the talk of town again--what happened to Stephen Cross' project on hypertextified literate programming? |> The downside is that its maintainance situation is a bit in the |> dark. There was a discussion on gnu.misc.discuss about how to reach |> the author, and apparently nobody had succeeded. I did not follow the dicussion on gnu.misc.discuss. I have very good experiences with Texinfo maintenance, though. The relevant guy is Roland McGrath (FSF), roland@gnu.ai.mit.edu. He is very responsive and gets into contact with the Texinfo author(s) fast. Incidentally, I agree with all of Christian's conclusions. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 04:19:43 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 11:17:56 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9308310917.AA08977@x4u.desy.de> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, sven@robots.ox.ac.uk Subject: re: texinfo References: <9308310228.AA01348@clavin.cs.tamu.edu> <9308310852.AA04136@hotspur.robots.ox.ac.uk> Bart> If having something that can produce a screen oriented version is that Bart> important, doesn't texinfo do that to some extent? Sven> Ghee, *what* is texinfo? [repost from Dec 92] Texinfo is a documentation system that uses a single source file to produce both on-line information [preferably using the GNU Emacs info reader] and printed output. Texinfo does not the GNU Emacs editor -- it's just much simpler if you have one [the same is true for the Info facility -- there is a standalone "info" executable]. The current distribution [texinfo-2.1?.tar.Z] can be retrieved via Anonymous FTP prep.ai.mit.edu in directory pub/gnu. Installation is easy since the FSF [Free Software Foundation] provides self-configuring files for a wide variety of machines. Without Emacs, what the minimum needed is two executables, o "texi2dvi" for the step .texinfo -> .dvi, and o "makeinfo" for the step .texinfo -> .info (i.e. text), together with a collection of macros o "texinfo.tex". If you have Emacs on your system, most probably you will also have those files somewhere in a /local/ dir. There is also the texi2roff formatter which makes you independent of TeX available from prep.ai.mit.edu. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 05:24:21 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 12:20:09 +0200 From: ddw2@sunbim.be (Dominique de Waleffe) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, ddw2@SUNBIM.BE Message-ID: <9308311020.AA03756@amadeus.sunbim.be> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Subject: Re: One more comment on troff References: <199308310711.AA07976@platanus> <9308310228.AA01348@clavin.cs.tamu.edu> >>> On Tue, 31 Aug 1993 09:11:53 +0200, Christian Lynbech said: Christian> Texinfo should do the trick on straight text Christian> output. There is even the added feature of being able Christian> to produce an info file, i.e. a hypertext Christian> representation of the program! I have had this idea in Christian> the back of my head for quite some time, but I haven't Christian> had time to investigate it much. I've had this in mind for a while and have been considering making nuweb work also for texinfo files. I think it would not be hard to quickly do if one abandons some of the nice formatting stuff that are available under Latex. But then it seems possible to exploit the referencing features of texinfo to provide navigational aids to browse the source under info. Christian> Certainly, producing a *usefull* program.info file, Christian> takes some care and consideration. In the project I'm working on, all system, manuals and program documentation must be written using TeXinfo. Then as usual that allows discrepancies (often quite large) between the real code and its associated documentation. I started using nuweb to provide additional documented code for the project, but now I would like to convert this to texinfo but without loosing the literate programming approach. This would allow me to convince other people of the benefits. Christian> I am not much of a texinfo hacker myself, but since Christian> texinfo is a juiced down version of TeX (sort of), Christian> wouldn't that also solve some of the learning problems Christian> reported by people. Some of the principle behind As I said earlier, texinfo is rather limited in typographical capabilities while the literate approach benefits a lot from such typography to include navigational references in the printed output while keeping those non-annoying (verbosity,length,size...) Christian> Incidently, there is also a LaTeXinfo package, for Christian> [text deleted] Christian> The downside is that its maintainance situation is a Christian> [text deleted] That's the reason why texinfo was chosen for the project mentionned above, but we did look at latexinfo too and found that it would allow better looking documentation to be produced. Maybe we could start a discussion on what would be required/nice/ideas related to modifying nuweb to support texinfo. (I already have a version that can use a character other than @ for commands) Dominique ============================================== Dominique de Waleffe ddw@sunbim.be BIM sa Chaussee de Louvain, 510 Tel: +32 2 719 26 14 B-1930 Zaventem Fax: +32 2 725 47 83 Belgium ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 05:56:06 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 11:33:22 +0200 From: Christian Lynbech Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Message-ID: <199308310933.AA08250@platanus> To: marcus@x4u.desy.de CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: (La)TeXinfo (was Re: One more comment on troff) Unfortunately, the LaTeXinfo package was not created by the GNU folks. My manual (dated june 17, 1992, version 1.7) states Michael Clarkson as author (in addition to R. Stallman and R. Chassell, but that must refer to the original texinfo package). I quote here another mail I got on the subject, for any interested parties. > Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 09:42:35 +0100 > From: Will Partain > X-Charset: LATIN1 > X-Char-Esc: 29 > > Our homebrew "literate programming" system is a Texinfo-based system > (actually) that tries to look like LaTeX. I posted a note about it a > while back. You'll find all the stuff on ftp.dcs.glasgow.ac.uk, > pub/haskell/glasgow/lit2x-0.16*. The .dvi and .info documentation > files are both there. > > Will > -- Christian ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 07:19:13 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 14:17:34 +0200 From: marcus@x4u.desy.de (Marcus Speh) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, marcus@X4U.DESY.DE Message-ID: <9308311217.AA17854@x4u.desy.de> To: Literate Programmers Subject: Glasglow litprog tool doc on WWW Will Partain let me access the Texinfo source for the documentation of the Glasgow tools--you can access them now on the World Wide Web: Try the links in "Tools" or "HyperLitProg". The direct address is http://info.desy.de:80/pub/www/projects/Litprog/glasgow/top.html ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 11:14:52 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 15:51:59 GMT From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM Message-ID: <9308311551.AA27046@ravel.sli.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: code reordering Greetings to Michael Koopman and other literate programmers. Your response in some measure fits into a very common pattern in discussions: you have stated true statements which don't contradict what I said. You find code reordering to be useful: I can't contradict that. I find it unnecessary; presumably you don't disagree with that either. However, there are some statements I do disagree with, for example: >Certainly we must agree that the order of code which >makes the compilers happy is unlikely to be the same as that which >allows the literate programmer to enlighten her audience. No: I do not agree. There is not a single best way of enlightening the audience, as your phrase "the same as" would suggest, but many. There are also many orders for presenting the code in a way that makes the compiler happy, in the common case where it is a package or module being presented rather than a program. (Perhaps because of my various programming biases, including LP, my programs tend to be made of many modules and a small "main" program.) In the languages I use (mostly Ada and extended Pascal), I find it easy to present the code in an order also useful for exposition. It is particularly easy with Ada, which allows subunits. >... To add many macro executives or file >creating directives seems like a lot more work than the programmer >should like to manage, especially in the light of relatively simple >techniques for code reordering with tools like FWEB. This would be true if it applied, but one directive in nine years of using the tool hardly counts as "many." The directive takes up 7 lines in a make file: not a significant amount of extra work for a nine year span. It is absolutely certain (to me, anyway) that the amount of extra work caused by the absence of the reordering ability has been far less than the work it would have taken to implement a macro capability. (If there were enough users of the tool, this would presumably change, but it isn't clear where the crossover point is.) Finally, you opined that pretty printing was an important capability. Again I disagree: my pretty printing is (in effect) done by Emacs as the code is put onto the electronic page, so I consider this a feature duplicating the capabilities of other tools. And I would ten thousand times rather have language independence than pretty printing, even aside from the fact that my personal experience with "pretty" printing is that it often comes out ugly. Lest I seem too negative, let me say that I believe a macro capability to be useful enough that a maximally good LP tool "ought" to have it. But the gains are more political than practical: there are enough people who won't touch a LP tool that lacks it that one lacking it can't succeed even if it were technically quite sufficient. Put another way: the real gains are small, but the perceived gains are large. But by no means do I mean to imply that the gains are zero. Michael F. Yoder [mfy@sli.com] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 13:23:06 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 09:53:54 PDT From: "Garg, Rohit" Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, garg@VNET.IBM.COM To: LitProg@SHSU.edu This is a test. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 13:49:19 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 18:35:25 GMT From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM Message-ID: <9308311835.AA27757@ravel.sli.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: TeX needed for LP? To add a single datapoint to the pool: my tool doesn't need TeX; it has three output modes, one of which produces LaTeX. It has a mode in which it generates LN03 output directly which is only used in special situations and when desperate; the third mode generates Interleaf(tm) ASCII form, and the output is of quality comparable to the quality of the LaTeX output. The mode which makes the Interleaf form was commissioned by Apollo Computer (before it became part of HP): this is because they had standardized on Interleaf for documentation. Opinion: an LP tool ought to be mostly formatter independent but allow for escape sequences so formatter commands can be included directly. I often use these to insert Tex or LaTeX sequences, and it is usually simple to arrange that the commands are ignored in other modes so the only effect is to have the output be prettier in TeX mode than the others. Occasionally I assume that the document will only be printed in the TeX mode. Michael F. Yoder [mfy@sli.com] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 14:24:22 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 21:20:15 +0200 From: Christian Lynbech Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK Message-ID: <199308311920.AA08991@platanus> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@sli.com CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: Re: code reordering > From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) [...stuf deleted...] > >Certainly we must agree that the order of code which > >makes the compilers happy is unlikely to be the same as that which > >allows the literate programmer to enlighten her audience. > > No: I do not agree. There is not a single best way of enlightening the > audience, as your phrase "the same as" would suggest, but many. There are also > many orders for presenting the code in a way that makes the compiler happy, in > the common case where it is a package or module being presented rather than a > program. (Perhaps because of my various programming biases, including LP, my > programs tend to be made of many modules and a small "main" program.) In the > languages I use (mostly Ada and extended Pascal), I find it easy to present the > code in an order also useful for exposition. It is particularly easy with Ada, > which allows subunits. [...more stuff deleted...] I'm sorry if I'm goeing back on something already discussed. I do not think that code reordering, in itself, is the true virtue of literate programming. To many languages has sufficiently `presentation freedom' to keep both the compiler and the audience (somewhat) happy. It is more the ability to interleave explanation and (totally order indepedent) code, in manageable chunks and at the power of report formatting/production. A nicely formatted report (or the like) with a something like a table of contents, nested sections and cross references (you were talking about FWEB, weren't you?), is far superior in my view. But it is not the ability to start with the main procedure, but rather the ability to have a properly formatted piece of text, explainig the finer points, that makes literate programming take off. I have yet to see any program so thoroughly documented that it rivals any of the (admitted somewhat few) literate programs with regards to readability and understandability. But remember, the issue is not whether it is *possible* at all, to program without literate programming in this or that form. The majority of the world seems to be doeing reasonably fine without it. ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 15:05:37 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 21:59:00 +0200 From: coates@spectro.jussieu.fr Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, coates@SPECTRO.JUSSIEU.FR Message-ID: <9308311959.AA02754@lutidine.spectro.jussieu.fr> To: LitProg@shsu.edu Subject: Re: code reordering Dear Litproggers, On the subject of the value of code reordering, I have to say that even if it isn't *necessary*, for the C++ code that I write (using FunnelWeb), I find it invaluable to put the definitions and implementations of the methods beside one another in the FunnelWeb source, although they end up in separate files (.h and .cc) afterwards. This may not be necessary, but if one of the goals of LP is to reduce programmer errors, then having the definitions side by side with the implementation certainly helps me. The errors usually aren't serious, in the sense that the compiler tells me of any mismatch, but I just save a lot of time when the two are together, because I can see instantly that the both declarations match. Yes, with Emacs I can look at both a .h and a .cc file at once, but I just don't find it as convenient as having things together in one file. So, for me, a LitProg tool that couldn't reorder code and generate multiple source files would not be nearly so useful as what I have now. You can argue whether I *really* save so much time, but I have to say that having related declarations together in one file is much easier for my poor little brain than having them spread across two or more files. Anyway, just my 2 centimes worth ... Cheers, Tony. ________________________________________________________________________________ A.B.Coates (Tony) Laboratoire de Spectroscopie Hertzienne de l'ENS Universite Pierre et Marie Curie Case 74, 4 place Jussieu Email: coates@spectro.jussieu.fr F-75252 Paris CEDEX 05 Telephone: +33 1 44 27 44 09 France Fax: +33 1 44 27 38 45 "J'ai mes opinions. L'universite a ses opinions. L'intersection de ces deux ensembles est probablement vide." "I have my opinions. The university has its opinions. The intersection of these two sets is probably empty." ________________________________________________________________________________ ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 16:13:08 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 21:00:44 GMT From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@SLI.COM Message-ID: <9308312100.AA28447@ravel.sli.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: reordering code etc. Good day to Tony Coates and the Literate Programming bunch. You wrote: > So, for me, a LitProg tool that couldn't reorder code and generate >multiple source files would not be nearly so useful as what I have now. I may have created a false impression with my earlier postings. My tool makes multiple source files, but doesn't reorder code within them. Its processing of the files is mostly limited to conditional inclusion, e.g. "@case host" and "@case target" where 'host' and 'target' are user-defined enumeration types. Michael F. Yoder [mfy@sli.com] ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 16:33:12 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 17:30:20 EDT From: Lee Wittenberg Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, leew@PILOT.NJIN.NET To: LitProg@shsu.edu, mfy@sli.com Subject: Re: code reordering Message-ID: Michael Yoder brings up an interesting point: > Lest I seem too negative, let me say that I believe a macro capability to be > useful enough that a maximally good LP tool "ought" to have it. But the gains > are more political than practical: there are enough people who won't touch a LP > tool that lacks it that one lacking it can't succeed even if it were > technically quite sufficient. Put another way: the real gains are small, but > the perceived gains are large. But by no means do I mean to imply that the > gains are zero. The interesting thing is that code reordering IS macro expansio, at least in the LP systems I am familar with. To be more precise, it is macro expansion without parameters (the possibility of allowing parameters in chunk names generated a lot a traffic a while ago, so I won't delve into that again). A rose by any other name? -- Lee ================================================================================ Archive-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 20:57:31 CST Sender: LP-Mgr@SHSU.edu Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 21:55:12 -0400 From: koopman@sgi84.ctc.com (Michael G. Koopman) Message-ID: <9309010155.AA25995@sgi84.ctc.com> To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, lynbech@DAIMI.AAU.DK CC: LitProg@SHSU.edu, mfy@sli.com, LitProg@SHSU.edu Subject: code reordering Reply-To: LitProg@SHSU.edu, koopman@ctc.com >Christian Lynbech > >> From: mfy@sli.com (Mike Yoder) >[...stuf deleted...] >> >Certainly we must agree that the order of code which >> >makes the compilers happy is unlikely to be the same as that which >> >allows the literate programmer to enlighten her audience. >> >> No: I do not agree. There is not a single best way of enlightening the >> audience, as your phrase "the same as" would suggest, but many. There are also >> many orders for presenting the code in a way that makes the compiler happy, in >> the common case where it is a package or module being presented rather than a >> program. I concur that there is not a single best exposition for any communication involving a literate program (WEB) or it's artifact (WEAVE). However, independence from order restrictions imposed by the compilers is significant to the use of LP tools in the maintenance of existing large implementations. Unfortunately I must work with a legacy of non-highly order independent programs, e.g., C, Fortran. Of course, burning all this Neanderthal code and restarting from scratch with *modern* tools is the Right Thing. Chipping away with WEB based exposition regarding the algorithms and implementation strategies has low utility. Rewrites where necessary to attain the elegance of right thinking post-modern Application Interfaces is kludgy beyond acceptable limits, except for the minor requirement of delivery. Anyone have a foolproof software paradigm conformal mapping implementation? A tool to test if a software paradigm is defined on an orthogonal basis would help, too. >I do not think that code reordering, in itself, is the true virtue of literate >programming. To many languages has sufficiently `presentation freedom' to keep >both the compiler and the audience (somewhat) happy. Turning the NIH (not invented here) volume to maximum and rewriting all existing code in, admittedly, highly improved implementations, such as OOA/D and ADA 9x, would be marvelous and the code order restrictions of the compiler could be reduced to acceptable limits. This approach may not be possible for many. >It is more the ability to interleave explanation and (totally order indepedent) >code, in manageable chunks and at the power of report formatting/production. A >nicely formatted report (or the like) with a something like a table of >contents, nested sections and cross references (you were talking about FWEB, >weren't you?), is far superior in my view. A brief retrace to pretty printing. Language sensitivity is a boon to the programmer in automagically generating an index and cross references. Language independence is valuable, also. The two are not mutually exclusive. However, the complexity of the LP tool that generates index entries by parsing code is greater than one which requires the author's interjection of 'escaped sequences' to accomplish the same. In this same breath, the escaped sequences are hazardous to the health of language independence. A WEB should not be a static document, i.e., equivalent to it's current WEAVE. If I need to create an exposition with a focus different than the current WEAVE, or need to present the same WEB to a different audience, I want to be able to move, splice, dice, fold, spin and mutilate the current WEAVE and still end up with a compilable TANGLE. I loose all my impact if the WEB breaks and can no longer do the stupid dog trick of the compiled TANGLE. The goal of a coherent exposition (logical WEAVE) should eliminate much of the pathology associated with arbitrarily moving pieces of code scraps about in the WEB. (I seem to have abstracted beyond a valuable thesis; hypothetical premise). >But remember, the issue is not whether it is *possible* at all, to program >without literate programming in this or that form. The majority of the world >seems to be doeing reasonably fine without it. Drat, the Real World, again. FOO. Michael Koopman (mike) e-mail: koopman@ctc.com Concurrent Technologies Corporation phone: +1-814-269-2637 1450 Scalp Avenue telefax: +1-814-269-2666 Johnstown, PA 15904-3321 USA ICBM: 40-15'N-78-50'W A technology's benefit must outweigh the risk in dollars & sense.