From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 1 03:21:33 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18808; Wed, 1 Apr 92 03:21:32 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 03:21 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4924; Wed, 01 Apr 92 02:20:12 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:17:55 BST From: CHAA006@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK Subject: Circles and arcs: an apology Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU I must apologise for my ridiculous message yesterday suggesting that a new circle font might contain arcs of varying length and diameter. Of course, no normal driver would be able to rotate the fragments into the required set of positions. I must have been suffering from post-conference jet lag. Once again, my apologies for engaging keyboard before brain. ** Phil. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 1 03:34:23 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18843; Wed, 1 Apr 92 03:34:22 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 03:34 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 5128; Wed, 01 Apr 92 02:32:54 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 11:11:11 GMT From: ruisseau.moyen@PWLITECHNICH.LLAREGUB.AC.CY.UTAH.EDU Subject: LaTeX3 Suggestion Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU We have recently acquired a new printer (from MirrorType Technologies) that can do simultaneous two-sided printing; producing the necessary extra fonts was no trouble, just some simple changes to the standard Metafont files, but we did need to get a much larger disk to put them on! We also recently installed the new version of LaTeX 2.09 with NFSS. To make these new fonts available to LaTeX we discovered that the NFSS now needs to be extended to include, besides \fontfamily, \fontshape, and \fontsize an extra parameter: \fontorientation. This is, of course, orthogonal to everything else (an important design criterium, according to our local ostler, Taylor The Whip). It would seem sensible if the plans for LaTeX3 could take this, and future developments in printing technology, into account and build a fully-flexible-LaTeX font system. Having actually produced these fonts, we also started investigating other uses for them. One in particular is developing nicely: Peter Abbott is expected to designing the contract in the near future to sell \magstep42 versions of these fonts to the Aston Triangle Fire Department for use on the front of their fire engines--all profits >From this enterprise will, of course, go to the LaTeX3 fund. Due to the special nature of these fonts, it is not yet possible to provide them on all the major archives: when we tried to use archive mirroring software on them it caused total confusion. However, the sources can be PTF'ed from ku.ca.XeT with username ``suomynona'' using SPIJ protocols as specified in the Red Queen Book. MirrorType Technologies is now working on a printer that can print highlighted, outline, and blinking fonts. Ruisseau Moyen ruisseau.moyen@cy.ac.llaregub.pwlitechnich From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 1 03:34:25 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB18843; Wed, 1 Apr 92 03:34:24 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 03:34 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 5131; Wed, 01 Apr 92 02:33:00 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:53:35 GMT From: spqr@MINSTER.YORK.AC.UK Subject: Re: Extending the lcircle fonts Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU David_Rhead@UK.AC.NOTT.VME writes: > creep in to the "graphs via TeX" macro package. [Another approach > might be to find out what basic operations graphics packages require, > e.g., "move to point", "draw line to point", and see if a TeX > interface could be provided that would allow a real graphics package > (such as Simpleplot or NAG Graphics) to write instructions in terms of > those basic operations which TeX could then "plot".] I've been using it for years; its called tpic. I wish more drivers would support it. > * be cautious about attempting to improve LaTeX to do things that are > traditionally done as artwork. Treat "pasting in via encapsulated > PostScript (perhaps after tidying up via Adobe Illustrator etc.)" as > the norm for artwork. If there is the prospect that everything that graphs aren't artwork. they are another way of representing data, like tables, so they *do* belong in typesetting. I distinguish between things, like graphs, that need typeset qualities (they often have lots of text) and things that are black boxes. The BBs are fine - TeX, like everyone else, can use EPS as the exchange medium. The former *are* a problem, but they are a problem for TeX, not LaTeX. I think latex3 should drop the whole picture environment like a stone into deep water. It was clever of Lamport to make it work, but like the dog walking on its hind legs... The proposal to add zillions more arcs to new fonts is a waste of time. There are so many more useful things to do to keep latex3 up to the mark as a modern typesetting package. I might point out that when Knuth designed the dvi format, he assumed that the printer had the ability to do rules -- he didn't put them in a font. I think we should assume that printers now have the ability to do circles, and effectively add that to the dvi format by agreeing on something like the tpic specials. But I still say that this is not LaTeX sebastian From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 1 04:24:53 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18920; Wed, 1 Apr 92 04:24:51 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 04:24 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 5543; Wed, 01 Apr 92 03:23:46 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 12:22:57 BST From: CHAA006@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK Subject: Y window system Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Via: UK.AC.NSFNET-RELAY; Wed, 1 Apr 92 7:58 BST Received: from vax.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by sun.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk with Internet SMTP id ; Tue, 24 Mar 1992 07:54:28 +0000 Received: from NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK by vax.NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK via List-Channel id aa24442; 24 Mar 92 5:15 GMT Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by vax.NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK via NSFnet with SMTP id aa24306; 24 Mar 92 5:08 GMT Received: from raisin-nut (raisin-nut.ai.mit.edu) by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA28044; Mon, 23 Mar 92 23:24:10 EST Received: by raisin-nut (4.1/AI-4.10) id AA18367; Mon, 23 Mar 92 23:24:10 EST Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 92 22:39:16 -0500 Subject: Y window system: beta-test release announcement The Y project team are pleased to announce the availability of the beta test version of the Y window system. Y is the result of international collaboration between leading computer scientists, psychologists, linguists and ergonomists, and sets out to redress many of the problems reported by users of the X window system, and in particular the related problems of screen clutter and icon underload. The fundamental problem with all previous window/icon/menu systems is the necessity to present the user with an every-increasing number of icons, as the complexity and range of tasks which the workstation is configured to support increases. Despite the improvements in technology (particularly in the area of active-matrix displays), there is little likelihood of monitors becoming available in the near future with major diagonals much in excess of 19". Combined with the limits of phosphor resolution, which we are approaching at 0.24mm, many researchers have reported that they are unable to place all necessary icons in the screen concurrently, and are having to resort to multi- level hierarchies of icon (`icon hiding') in order to retain legibility while allowing for the necessary complexity of display. The Y window system (or Y, as it will be generally know) seeks to address these problems by several interrelated improvements. These include reducing the complexity of icons (thereby allowing the icons to be presented at a smaller size without loss of intelligibility), and `icon chaining', a patented system whereby icons have no meaning in isolation - instead, icons are chained together into `words' (ordered sets of icons), and the words themselves express the desired concept. (Further developments of this technique are already being investigated for the Z window system, in which words will be further grouped into `sentences'). Perhaps the most revolutionary aspect of Y is that the icons are not pre-presented, thereby avoiding from the outset the problem of screen clutter. Instead, the Y user is presented with an almost blank (i.e. uncluttered) screen, with a vestigial icon phrase (`prompt') at the far left. Using a digital input device, or DID, the user dynamically creates a series of icons on the screen, separated by icon delimiters or `spaces' (alternative forms of icon separator are provided with different semantics attached to each; for example, in the U window system, a horizontal bar represents the assertion of the following icon, while an intersecting horizontal and vertical bar represent the retraction of the icon, in accordance with current usage. The V window system uses a diagonal bar to indication assertion, and requires additional icons to indicate negation or retraction). When the icon-list is complete, the user indicates that the indicated action is to be carried out by a further, reserved, button on the DID. One of the most significant advantages of Y over X, and other similar systems, is that icons do not have any reserved meaning in isolation. The same icon may occur in different contexts, and its meaning will be taken from the context in which it appears. This context-sensitivity, although requiring greater power in the icon-string analyser, allows an infinite set of icon groups productions to be creatable under user control; if an icon group has a predefined meaning, then use of the reserved `enter' button on the DID will cause that meaning to be communicated to the processor; if no predefined meaning exists, the processor will indicate this to the user by means of a further icon string, this time generated by the system. This may of itself lead to a further icon string being generated by the user, and thus processing continues. The Y window system has been placed in the public domain, subject only to the normal conditions of the Free Firmware Foundation. Copies may be found on all major archives and mirrors, though the exact location may vary from site to site. Potential beta testers are asked to contact their local archive or mirror for further details on availability and registration. [Submitted on behalf of the Free Firmware Foundation, 1 April 1992] From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 1 06:57:26 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA20946; Wed, 1 Apr 92 06:57:25 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 06:57 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8572; Wed, 01 Apr 92 05:56:11 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:30:36 BST From: Adrian F Clark Subject: Re: Extending the lcircle fonts In-Reply-To: spqr%minster.york.ac.uk@uk.ac.essex.mailhost's message of Wed, 1 Apr 92 09:53:35 GMT Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: <11D824CEEC008454@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Sebastian writes: > I've been using it for years; its called tpic. I wish more drivers > would support it. Well, yes, I agree with the sentiment of this. However, tpic has some fairly severe limitations: for example, you can't draw a dashed arc using any of the tpic drivers I've seen. > graphs aren't artwork. they are another way of representing data, like > tables, so they *do* belong in typesetting. I distinguish between > things, like graphs, that need typeset qualities (they often have lots > of text) and things that are black boxes. The same goes for grey-scale pictures (my own particular axe to grind). They're not just black boxes, either (no pun intended). > I might point out that when > Knuth designed the dvi format, he assumed that the printer had the > ability to do rules -- he didn't put them in a font. I think we should > assume that printers now have the ability to do circles, and > effectively add that to the dvi format by agreeing on something like > the tpic specials. Yes yes yes. Until we extend the DVI specification (or standardize a set of specials) to support graphical information, both for line-drawing and grey-scale rendition, TeX (never mind LaTeX) cannot be the tool of choice for many authors in science and engineering. And some means of specifyine colour is likewise growing in importance. Why shouldn't LaTeX 3 produce a de facto standard set of specials for this sort of thing? I'm sure the major driver writers would breathe a sigh of relief. .Adrian Dr Adrian F. Clark JANET: alien@uk.ac.essex INTERNET: alien%uk.ac.essex@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk FAX: (+44) 206-872900 BITNET: alien%uk.ac.essex@ac.uk PHONE: (+44) 206-872432 (direct) Dept ESE, University of Essex, Wivenhoe Park, Colchester, Essex, C04 3SQ, UK. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 1 07:43:53 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA21096; Wed, 1 Apr 92 07:43:50 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 07:42 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 0486; Wed, 01 Apr 92 06:41:08 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 14:42:33 +0000 From: P.Abbott@ASTON.AC.UK Subject: Re: Extending the lcircle fonts Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: <183795E2FC008571@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > >I think latex3 should drop the whole picture environment like a stone >into deep water. It was clever of Lamport to make it work, but like >the dog walking on its hind legs... > I use the picture environment to place objects ib a document. As long as the facility of being able to specify the origin (0,0) of an object is retained, then I have no objection to the loss of the picture environment. I also use it to draw outline boxes when deciding how much space my object should occupy. It is very useful. Peter Tel 44 (0)21 359 5492 direct FAX 44 (0)21 359 6158 From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 1 07:58:44 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA21146; Wed, 1 Apr 92 07:58:42 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 1 Apr 1992 07:58 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 1422; Wed, 01 Apr 92 06:57:18 PST Date: Wed, 1 Apr 92 16:55:23 +0200 From: Rainer Schoepf Subject: {2} Re: {1} LaTeX-L: what should it be called In-Reply-To: Robin Fairbairns's message of Thu, 26 Mar 92 09:44:31 GMT <199203261336.AA25072@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de> Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: <1A6636C46C007A76@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Robin wrote: All of which would be made clear in the automatically-generated announcement message that new subscribers get. I agree with Phil. If only someone could explain to me how to install the file with the customized announcement message into the list server. It's documentation says only how to *write* it. Curious of Berlin From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Thu Apr 2 01:27:01 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA27972; Thu, 2 Apr 92 01:26:59 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 01:26 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 1560; Thu, 02 Apr 92 00:25:50 PST Date: Thu, 2 Apr 92 08:34:00 GMT From: malcolm Subject: RE: LaTeX3 Suggestion Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU i'm sorry, but this was posted after noon and therefore does not qualify under german law as an april fool. sorry. good attempt. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Thu Apr 2 05:45:45 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA00330; Thu, 2 Apr 92 05:45:43 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 2 Apr 1992 05:45 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4547; Thu, 02 Apr 92 04:44:38 PST Date: Thu, 2 Apr 92 14:39:19 +0200 From: Rainer Schoepf Subject: From comp.text.tex: New Document & Page Styles ? Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU With some good will, LaTeX can be considered as a Logical Markup Language, like SGML. I will dicuss LaTeX from this viewpoint in this posting. One of the advantages of a Logical Markup Language is that one can define the LOGICAL structure of a document entirely independent of its eventual typographical appearance. The definition of a correct documents structure is called a DTD in SGML. The translation of LOGICAL to TYPOGRAPHICAL representation (Say LaTeX source to dvi-format) would ideally be just a matter of selecting a particular style sheet that gives all typographical style definitions for each logical mark-up in the source document. Another style sheet will result in a possibly totally different "look" of the document. So for a conceptually nice textformatting system we must be able to define the logical document structure (DTD like) and we need style definitions for all the logical elements that are introduced by the DTD. How about LaTeX?: ================= LaTeX gives us the following "document styles": - article, book, report and letter with some "style options" - 11pt, 12pt, twoside, twocolumn, ..., times, .. The document styles are a combination of "DTD" and "style definitions": when I type \documentstyle{article} I define: 1: The text has the article "DTD": it consists os sections, a table of contents etc. 2: The lay-out of this article "DTD" is the typical "LaTeX-look" I really should like to do something like: \documentstructure{book} \documentstyledef{MITpress} or \documentstructure{thesis} \documenttyledef{fancy} i.e. clearly separating structure and typography. Indeed the LaTeX style options 11pt, 12pt, twoside, twocolumn have some flavour of changing the global lay-out of the document by changing a "style-definition". But I really should like to have different Lay-out Styles for the standard LaTeX DTD's. Now one always ends up with the "Lamport Lay-out". Most modern WYSIWYG lay-out packages like Ventura, Pagemaker and even a Word processor like MS-Word use an internal representation language that uses abstract tags which can be combined with different style-definitions to produce a final lay-out. I should like to have such a possibility in LaTeX as well. I know that nearly everything is possible in TeX :-) , so maybe somebody has done some work this. So I finally come to my questions: Which style files are available that define non-standard "DTD's"?(I know about various Conference and Publisher "DTD's") Are there any "lay-out style definitions" available for the standard LaTeX "DTD's" that define a completely different Lay-out? Wessel Kraaij From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sat Apr 4 21:04:34 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA21670; Sat, 4 Apr 92 21:04:30 MST Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sat, 4 Apr 1992 21:04 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 9120; Sat, 04 Apr 92 20:03:21 PST Date: Sat, 4 Apr 92 16:44:24 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Structures to be supported Sender: LaTeX-L Mailing list To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: LaTeX-L Mailing list Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU % These notes are along the same lines as Wessel Kraaij's comments, as % copied from comp.text.tex by Rainer. % Please feel free to replace ... \documentstyle[11pt]{article} \sloppy % ... by a command to map a "2.09 article structure" into whatever % design you like which is compatible with that structure. \newcommand{\BibTeX}{{\rm B\kern-.05em{\sc i\kern-.025em b}\kern-.08em T\kern-.1667em\lower.7ex\hbox{E}\kern-.125emX}} \begin{document} \title{Structures to be supported} \author{David Rhead} \date{April 1992} \maketitle \tableofcontents \section{Motivation} \subsection{Dual role of 2.09 style files} In \LaTeX\ 2.09, ``style files'' confuse 2 roles: \begin{itemize} \item definition of a structure. (I think I've heard this given as a justification for the designs: ``the designs don't matter, because the style-files are just there to define what structures are supported''.) \item mapping the structure into a design. \end{itemize} For example: \begin{itemize} \item {\tt article.sty} and {\tt xarticle.sty} seem to map the same structure (the ``\LaTeX\ 2.09 analysis of the structure of an {\tt article}'') into different designs \item the command \verb+\documentstyle{siam}+ seems to map ``{\sc siam}'s analysis of the structure of an article'' into ``{\sc siam}'s design for an article''. (If so, then the roles of \verb+\documentstyle[11pt]{siam}+ and \verb+\documentstyle[12pt]{siam}+ are unclear. Are they intended as ``preprint styles'', for an author to use while a paper is being drafted?) \item the commands \verb+\documentstyle[onecolumn,10pt]{iso}+ and \verb+\documentstyle[twocolumn,9pt]{iso}+ seem to map ``the structure of an ISO standard'' into ``two designs for ISO standards''. \end{itemize} Changing from \verb+\documentstyle{article}+ to \verb+\documentstyle{xarticle}+ will work (i.e., give a document with the same structure but a different design), but changing from \verb+\documentstyle{article}+ to \verb+\documentstyle{siam}+ or to \verb+\documentstyle{iso}+ won't work. The analysis that was done for version 2.09 is mostly implicit in {\tt sty} files, rather than being available explicitly. Subsequent providers of {\tt sty} files have generally followed the same practice (although some provide supplementary documentation). Thus, a user who just wants his/her current structure laid out in a different design may end up reading lots of archived {\tt sty} file code to see whether an alternative {\tt sty} file supports the structure they are currently using. \subsection{Practical difficulties at 2.09} Someone attempting to produce a book/thesis with \LaTeX\ 2.09 has to change various defaults: \begin{itemize} \item they will want their preliminary pages numbered in roman, but will want to switch back to arabic at the start of their main text. They may need a \verb+\setcounter+ to start the roman sequence at the right place. \item they will probably want units such as ``acknowledgements'' and ``references'' to appear in their ``table of contents''. They will be using \verb+\chapter*+ for such units (to get headings that look appropriate), so will have to use \verb+\addcontentsline+ to get the units mentioned in the ``table of contents''. \item page-selection can be a problem, since \verb+\count0+ doesn't distinguish between roman and arabic. \end{itemize} People producing ``an issue of a journal'', or a conference-proceedings, may have additional problems: \begin{itemize} \item if they treat the work as {\tt book} \cite[p.\ 23]{lamport}, they will be faced with trying to get authors' names, affiliations, etc., typeset consistently at the start of each chapter. \item if they leave the work as a series of {\tt article}s, they will be faced with ensuring that numbering (of pages, etc.) follows on. \end{itemize} I think that these problems arise because the analysis of ``document structure'' for the \LaTeX\ 2.09 ``standard styles'' is inappropriate: \begin{itemize} \item the concepts of ``front matter'' and ``back matter'' are well known in publications about book design, etc., but aren't supported by the 2.09 ``standard styles'' \item an ``issue of a journal'', and a conference-proceedings, have structures of their own (which are different from the structure of an ordinary book). \end{itemize} \subsection{Suggestion for 3.0} I think that there would be advantages in: \begin{enumerate} \item keeping a clear distinction between ``the structure supported'' and ``the design into which the structure is mapped'', so that the end-user will known when they can/cannot change design by changing just one line of their {\tt tex} file. \item associated with (1), thinking in terms of ``software that maps a structure into a design'', rather than ``style file'' which confuses ``structure supported'' with ``design into which the structure is mapped'' \item analyzing in more depth the structure of the types of documents to be supported. Then, for example, the end-user will be able to just say ``this is front matter'', and so have details such as roman/arabic numbering, heading style, and ``table of contents'' entries taken care of automatically in accordance with the relevant design (or house-style). \end{enumerate} \section{Structures to be supported} Various gurus \cite{chicago,aap,majour,white,bs-thesis,bs-report,tei} give analyses of the structures of the document-classes for which people use \LaTeX\ 2.09. Although, there may be differences between the analyses offered by different gurus, I think that it would be better for the project to consult the gurus, rather than to ignore them (since otherwise the project will waste time re-doing the work already done by the gurus). \subsection{First proposition} It is easier to select the ``good bits'' from off-the-shelf analyses than to start from nothing. \subsection{Second proposition} For overall structure, particularly ``good bits'' are to be found in the {\it Chicago Manual of Style} \cite[pages 4,5]{chicago} and in the SGML DTDs published by the Association of American Publishers \cite[appendix B]{aap}. \subsection{Notes about AAP analysis} \subsubsection{Three basic structures} Broadly, the AAP analysis defines three basic structures: \begin{description} \item[BK-1] book/monograph/textbook, conference proceedings, technical report, thesis/dissertation \item[ART-1] article, feature \item[SER-1] serial,\footnote{% I think they mean ``an issue of a serial''. See section \ref{not-a-serial}.} conference-proceedings. (Articles are embedded within a serial without any modifications.) \end{description} Thus, although the \LaTeX\ 2.09 and AAP analyses both define 3 main structures, the boundaries are drawn differently: \begin{itemize} \item the AAP regards reports and books as having the same basic BK-1 structure (unlike \LaTeX\ 2.09, which has two distinct ``standard styles'', {\tt report} and {\tt book}, the main difference being that {\tt book} isn't allowed to have an abstract) \item whereas the \LaTeX\ 2.09 manual suggests \cite[p.\ 23]{lamport} that ``it is easy to include an article as a chapter in a report or book'', the AAP defines a special structure, SER-1, for multi-author works made up of separate articles. \end{itemize} \subsubsection{Borderline cases} Some types of document may lie on the borderline between two AAP categories. For example, a long report might be divided into units called chapters and be appropriately classified as BK-1, while a short report might be divided into units called sections and be more akin to ART-1. (Compare \cite{aap}, which envisages that technical reports will have BK-1 structure, with \cite{bs-report} which envisages that technical reports will be divided into sections.) At worst, cases that cross borderlines might need two mappings. In the report example, they might be (1) a mapping of BK-1 structure to a report design, and (2) a mapping of ART-1 structure to a report design. (This is no worse than the situation with the \LaTeX\ 2.09 ``standard styles'', which also envisage that {\tt report} is made up of chapters.) Thus, adoption of AAP classification would not cause insuperable difficulties. \subsubsection{Advantages of AAP analysis} Paying serious attention to the AAP analysis would have various advantages: \begin{itemize} \item the analysis is well-known \item it covers the types of documents that current \LaTeX-users generally want to produce \item it generally (but not always) gives analysis to the depth that \LaTeX\ 3.0 might need \item other gurus cite it (if only to disagree with it) \item it embodies knowledge about publishing practice that the average \LaTeX-er doesn't have \item it is finite. The project would not be attempting to analyse all possible documents, but would be concentrating on the structures that are most commonly required. \item support for AAP-like structures might attract ``real publishers'' to \LaTeX \item {\it it exists now} (unlike, for example, the European journal-publishers' work \cite{majour}, which is still in progress). \end{itemize} \subsubsection{Disadvantages of AAP analysis} \label{not-a-serial} The AAP analysis is not suitable in all respects as a model of what \LaTeX\ 3.0 (and associated software) should do: \begin{itemize} \item The analysis may go deeper in some areas than is required for \LaTeX\ 3.0. (If something with the ``look and feel'' of SGML is required, one might as well use SGML.) \item On the other hand, the analysis doesn't go deep enough in other areas. For example, the AAP analysis is no better than the \LaTeX\ 2.09 analysis for: \begin{itemize} \item citations and reference-lists \cite{iso-690}; \item captions, legends and credit-lines \cite[ch.\ 11]{chicago}; \item notes to tables \cite[ch.\ 12]{chicago}. \end{itemize} Other gurus' analyses would have to be used in such areas. \item At a recent SGML meeting \cite{exeter8}, the AAP standard was described as too Anglo-centric. Hence the European journal-publishers' work \cite{majour} was criticised as too AAP-influenced. \item ``Serial'' is usually used (e.g., by librarians) to describe a publication that could potentially continue indefinitely (e.g., all the issues of a journal, including those not yet published). Therefore SER-1 may be a poor choice of name for a structure that would represent ``a single issue of a series'' or a ``one-off conference proceeedings''. MULTI-1 might have been a better name for such multi-author (or multi-article) works. \end{itemize} \subsubsection{Attitude to AAP analysis} An analysis based on that given by the AAP (minus a few details, plus a few other details which could be taken from \cite{chicago} and other places) might give a reasonable compromise between: \begin{itemize} \item ``re-inventing the wheel'' \item blindly obeying something (AAP structure) that hasn't been thought through in all respects. \end{itemize} \subsection{Example} For example, if some compromise was made between the Chicago analysis and the AAP analysis, one might envisage a user preparing a file of the form: \begin{verbatim} .. \begin{frontmatter} \frontelement{Foreword} ... \frontelement{Preface} ... \frontelement{Acknowledgements} ... \frontelement{Dedication} ... \frontelement{Abstract} ... \end{frontmatter} \begin{bodymatter} \chapter{...} ... \end{bodymatter} \begin{appendices} \appendix{...} ... \end{appendices} \begin{backmatter} % short for "other back matter" \backelement{Glossary} ... \backelement{Notes} ... \end{backmatter} \end{verbatim} % Perhaps \oneappendix{...} could be substituted for % \begin{appendices} % \appendix{...} % ... % \end{appendices} % if there is only one appendix. \subsubsection*{Note} The above example assumes that, for \LaTeX\ purposes: \begin{itemize} \item it will generally be sufficient to think in terms of ``front matter elements'' and ``back matter elements'' \item it will not be appropriate to go for complete analogy with the AAP's SGML DTD. Thus, one would not expect typical \LaTeX\ 3.0 software to define environments like \verb+\acknowledgements+: if \LaTeX\ 3,0 gets used as a back-end for an SGML system, the AAP's \verb++ would get converted to \verb+\frontelement{Acknowledgements}+. (However, if any elements required special treatment, particular environments could be defined for them, as is done in \LaTeX\ 2.09 with {\tt abstract}.) \end{itemize} \subsection{Bonuses from using structures influenced by Chicago/AAP} \subsubsection{Conference proceedings} A document with structure based on SER-1 will naturally support ``a reference-list at the end of each chapter'' plus the option of a composite bibliography at the end of the document (for which one sometimes sees in requests in electronic digests from editors of conference proceedings). Because the structure is appropriate, there should be less conflict than if one is (for example) mis-using the 2.09 {\tt book} structure. One shouldn't end up trying to have {\tt thebibliography} at both 2.09 ``section'' level and at ``chapter'' level, because the ``references at end of article'' and ``bibliography at end of complete work'' units would have different definitions. For \BibTeX, one could envisage a scheme involving perhaps {\tt article1.bbl}, \dots\ , {\tt article}$N${\tt .bbl}, {\tt backmatter.bbl}. \subsubsection{Page selection} Such an analysis would lead naturally to schemes for using the \verb+\count+s sensibly, so as to support: \begin{itemize} \item distinction between roman and arabic numbered pages (i.e., front matter and main text) \item selection of ``all the front matter'', a whole chapter, a whole appendix, or ``all the (non-appendix) back matter''. \end{itemize} For example, one might have: \begin{center} \begin{footnotesize} \begin{tabular}{lllll} \hline\hline Major division & Minor divisions&\verb+\count0+&\verb+\count1+&\verb+\count2+\\ \hline\hline Front matter & & page-number & {\tt -1} & {\tt 0} \\ \hline Main text & chapters & page-number & chapter-number & {\tt 0} \\ & & & {\tt 1, 2, ... }& \\ \hline Back matter: & appendices &page-number&appendix number& {\tt 1}\\ appendices & & & {\tt 1, 2, ... }& \\ \hline Back matter: & glossary & page-number&{\tt -2} & {\tt 0} \\ other units & bibliography & & \\ & index, etc. & & \\ \hline\hline \end{tabular}\end{footnotesize}\end{center} \subsubsection{Generally} Generally, if a correct analysis of structure is made, practical details will tend to fall into place nicely, rather than needing messy {\it ad hoc} circumventions. \section{Modularity} \subsection{Analysis in general} Although I've suggested that a Chicago/AAP analysis might provide a suitable basis for ``structures to be supported by \LaTeX\ 3.0'': \begin{itemize} \item any ``\LaTeX\ 3.0 project'' selection of ``the good bits'' is unlikely to be perfect \item some better analysis may come along, and some successor to the ``\LaTeX\ 3.0 project'' may want to support that analysis rather than one derived from the suggestions given here \item people may have to produce ``structure to design'' mappings for structures other than the 3 ``modified AAP'' ones (e.g., legal articles, ISO standards, SGML DTDs other than the 3 AAP ones) \item people may produce ``structure to design'' mappings for enhancements of the 3 ``modified AAP'' ones (e.g., a book that contains plates and maps, if they are to be numbered separately from other illustrations). \end{itemize} It seems desirable that such possibilities should be borne in mind when any software is being written. \subsection{Structure supported by mapping software} I think that mapping software (i.e., whatever we call the successors to 2.09 ``style files'') should make clear the structure that is supported, for example: \begin{itemize} \item by software checks \item because the mapping software starts with a comment that defines the structure it supports. \end{itemize} Then end-users will know (or find out in a friendly way) whether or not they can simply ``change design by changing one line of the {\tt tex} file''. For example: \begin{itemize} \item a thesis and a Wiley book might have the same structure, so a one-line change to the {\tt tex} file should lead to a change from one design to another (with no change to the structure) \item papers in different physics journals will probably have the same structure, so a one-line change to the {\tt tex} file should lead to a change from one journal's design to another's \item ISO standards have their own structure. Someone who tries to apply typesetting software that is intended for a different structure (e.g., an AAP-based structure) should get a sensible error message. \end{itemize} \begin{thebibliography}{00} \addcontentsline{toc}{section}{References} \bibitem{lamport} {\sc Leslie Lamport.} {\it LaTeX: a document preparation system.} Addison-Wesley, 1986. \bibitem{chicago} {\it Chicago manual of style.} 13th edition. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1982. \bibitem{aap} {\it Electronic manuscript preparation and markup: ANSI/NISO Z39.59-1988.} New Brunswick: Transaction publishers, 1991. ISBN 0-88738-945-7. \bibitem{majour} {\it DTD for article headers.} Amsterdam: European workgroup on SGML, 1991. \bibitem{white} {\sc Jan V. White.} {\it Graphic design for the electronic age.} Watson-Guptill, 1988. \bibitem{bs-thesis} {\it Presentation of theses and dissertations.} BS 4821. British Standards Institution, 1990. \bibitem{bs-report} {\it Presentation of research and development reports.} BS 4811. British Standards Institution, 1972. \bibitem{tei} {\sc C. M. Sperberg-McQueen and Lou Burnard.} {\it Guidelines for the encoding and interchange of machine-readable texts.} Draft version 1.1. Oxford, Chicago: Text Encoding Initiative, 1990. \bibitem{exeter8} {\sc Michael Popham.} {\it Report on inaugural meeting of UK chapter of SGML Users' Group.} Report number 8, SGML project, Exeter University, 1992. \bibitem{iso-690} {\it Documentation --- bibliographic references --- content, form and structure.} ISO 690. International Organization for Standardization, 1987. \end{thebibliography} \end{document} From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Thu Apr 16 10:08:16 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18141; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:08:11 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 10:06 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7163; Thu, 16 Apr 92 09:04:27 PDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:07:42 -0400 From: Fernando Gouvea Subject: A question of names Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU I've just come across a discussion of AMS-LaTeX that describes it as "a part of LaTeX 3.0" and recommends naming the new format file made when installing AMS-LaTeX (basically just LaTeX 2.09 with the NFSS) "LaTeX3.fmt". This seems inappropriate to me. Would any of the developers care to comment? ============================================================================ Fernando Q. Gouvea fqgouvea@colby.edu Dept. of Math/CS (207)-872-3278 Colby College Mudd 407 ============================================================================ From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Thu Apr 16 11:49:33 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18766; Thu, 16 Apr 92 11:49:32 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 11:49 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 1682; Thu, 16 Apr 92 10:48:17 PDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 19:48:12 CET From: Michael Downes Subject: Re: A question of names In-Reply-To: <01GIWXLXP0ASCOZVZC@MATH.AMS.COM> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <042990CE72039C77@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > I've just come across a discussion of AMS-LaTeX that describes it as "a > part of LaTeX 3.0" and recommends naming the new format file made when > installing AMS-LaTeX (basically just LaTeX 2.09 with the NFSS) > "LaTeX3.fmt". This seems inappropriate to me. Would any of the developers > care to comment? Well, individual users are free to name their format files whatever they want; however to name a format file based on LaTeX 2.x and AMS-LaTeX 1.x "LaTeX3.fmt" seems inappropriate to me also, or to put it another way, I can't imagine why anyone would want to do it. (As far as I know no one at the AMS has recommended naming AMS-LaTeX format files "LaTeX3.fmt".) Current plans are for the mathematical capabilities of the AMS-LaTeX package to be integrated with LaTeX 3.0 as a joint effort between the AMS and the LaTeX 3.0 development group. But that is still in the future. Michael Downes Technical Support Group American Mathematical Society From LISTSERV@DHDURZ1.BITNET Thu Apr 16 12:09:54 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18882; Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:09:52 MDT Received: from DHDURZ1 (MAILER@DHDURZ1) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:09 MST Received: by DHDURZ1 (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6961; Thu, 16 Apr 92 20:08:59 CET Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 20:08:57 CET From: ListEARN List Processor (1.3) Subject: Output of your job "LATEX-L" To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Message-Id: <07008A2732011753@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Your mail file (1504) of Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:07:05 MDT was successfully DISTRIBUTEd to 146 recipients of LATEX-L@DHDURZ1. From beebe Thu Apr 16 12:07:20 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from solitude.math.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA18855; Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:07:05 MDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:07:05 MDT From: Nelson H. F. Beebe To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Cc: beebe X-Us-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, South Physics, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112" X-Telephone: (801) 581-5254 X-Fax: (801) 581-4148 Subject: Re: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Apr 92 15:46:04 BST Message-Id: David Rhead suggests that \footnote might be redefined to ignore leading space. I agree that this would most often be useful. In the rare event that the space is wanted, one can always write text text text {}\footnote{...} Another macro I'd like to see changed the same way is \index{} and its relatives like \glossary, where it is equally vital that the index reference be tagged to the preceding word. I've more than once been bitten by text like this: text text text \index{first entry} \index{second entry} text text text As David noted, it is useful to have \footnote{} and \index{} stuff on separate lines to improve the readability of the input file, and also to avoid confusing text processing filters (spelling and grammar checkers) by input like "text\footnote{...}". The example above not only can get the wrong page number into the index entries, but it also produces spurious space that is preserved in the typeset output between the two text blocks! To get correct output, you have to use %s on the first and second lines. Therefore, unless someone comes up with a serious objection about why this change should not be made, I tentatively cast a vote for it. ======================================================================== Nelson H.F. Beebe Center for Scientific Computing Department of Mathematics 220 South Physics Building University of Utah Salt Lake City, UT 84112 USA Tel: (801) 581-5254 FAX: (801) 581-4148 Internet: beebe@math.utah.edu ======================================================================== From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Thu Apr 16 09:28:38 1992 Flags: 000000000011 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA17865; Thu, 16 Apr 92 09:28:37 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 16 Apr 1992 09:26 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4431; Thu, 16 Apr 92 08:22:30 PDT Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 15:46:04 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU I have the impression that anyone (e.g., Humanities people) producing a serious work that involves lots of footnotes will probably lay their .tex file out thus Text text text text text text.% \footnote{Footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text.} text text text text text text text text text text text text text.% \footnote{Footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text.} Text text text text text text text% \footnote{Footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text.} text text text text text text text% so that they can have a reasonable chance of checking their main text (e.g., reading through complete sentences) and their footnotes without mixing the main text up with the footnotes. With LaTeX 2.09, the %s are necessary as shown, because "adding space would have put an unwanted space between the text and the footnote marker" (2.09 manual, page 19). However, it would presumably be possible to define \footnote in such a way that it ignored preceding spaces (this seems to be what is done in AMSTeX, where "space before \footnotemark is always ignored" (The Joy ... , 2nd edn, page 161)). Can anyone think of a frequently occuring situation in which a space is sensible before a footnote marker? (I can't.) Would there be a consensus in favour of "spaces before \footnote being ignored" in LaTeX 3.0? I.e., in favour of LaTeX 3.0 treating Text text text text text text text \footnote{Footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text.} like LaTeX 2.09 treats Text text text text text text text% \footnote{Footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text footnote text.} ? David Rhead d.rhead@uk.ac.nottingham.ccc.vme From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 17 05:28:10 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA25719; Fri, 17 Apr 92 05:28:08 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Fri, 17 Apr 1992 05:27 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8742; Fri, 17 Apr 92 04:26:58 PDT Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 12:26:13 +0100 From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <980AD49D62041E56@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Add my vote to an ignorespaces (\unskip) before \footnote, \index and similar. Dominik From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 17 06:21:14 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA25817; Fri, 17 Apr 92 06:21:12 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Fri, 17 Apr 1992 06:20 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 9699; Fri, 17 Apr 92 05:20:01 PDT Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 14:14:37 MET From: Piotr Wlaz Subject: Re: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 16 Apr 92 15:46:04 BST from Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <9F7296A40203AD3E@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU I think that usage of % at the end of the line is somewhat inconvenient. After the text will be reformatted, the percent sign may appear in the middle of the line making the rest invisible. Piotr From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue Apr 21 05:09:36 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA22545; Tue, 21 Apr 92 05:09:34 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 21 Apr 1992 05:09 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4078; Tue, 21 Apr 92 04:08:37 PDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 11:42:07 +0200 From: Rainer Schoepf Subject: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? In-Reply-To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"'s message of Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:07:05 MDT <199204161809.AA10213@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Nelson Beebe writes: Another macro I'd like to see changed the same way is \index{} and its relatives like \glossary, where it is equally vital that the index reference be tagged to the preceding word. I've more than once been bitten by text like this: text text text \index{first entry} \index{second entry} text text text But neither \index nor \glossary produce a reference, so what is it that you want to see changed? Rainer Schoepf From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 22 11:36:56 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA03105; Wed, 22 Apr 92 11:36:54 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 10:32 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8384; Tue, 21 Apr 92 10:40:50 PDT Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 13:52:09 EDT From: Robin Fairbairns Subject: Re: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: beebe@math.utah.edu Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" In article <1992Apr17.132246.1651@lsl.co.uk>, Piotr Wlaz writes: > I think that usage of % at the end of the line is somewhat inconvenient. After > the text will be reformatted, the percent sign may appear in the middle of the > line making the rest invisible. That's a cogent argument. Another is that (sadly) many users of LaTeX aren't even as expert as the likes of me. I have enough trouble getting my users to put spaces after their full stops(periods) and commas* - many of them do use footnotes, but I've not even tried to sort out the `space before \footnote' syndrome. Life is just too short! Add my vote `for' -- Robin Fairbairns, Senior Consultant, postmaster and general dogsbody Laser-Scan Ltd., Science Park, Milton Rd., Cambridge CB4 4FY, UK Email: robin@lsl.co.uk --or-- rf@cl.cam.ac.uk * Try it some time. It looks _horrible_. I can't understand why they won't accept the value of what I'm saying! From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 22 11:53:06 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA03275; Wed, 22 Apr 92 11:53:03 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 11:05 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6526; Tue, 21 Apr 92 14:06:10 PDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 23:04:57 +0200 From: Rolf Lindgren Subject: Re: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU HOW I WOULD LIKE FOOTNOTES TO BE I've yet to see a fully developed plan for the ultimate footnote scheme. This is just an attempt at a compromise and hopefully not the last word about the issue. Humanities load their publications with notes. Stocks them full of'em. They come in three shapes: 1. Citations 2. End notes 3. Footnotes 1. Citations These are used to inform the reader where the authos has this from. They're usually of the type , eg. (Skinner, 1936) or (Skinner, 1936, pp 36-42). theapa.sty takes care of this and should come standard with LaTeX3 (or its functionality). 2. End notes and footnotes. Footnotes are also quite simple. They go at the bottom of the page. But there should be some option to tell them whether to span the entire footer or only the column in which it appears. End notes sometimes are collated at the end of each chapter, sometimes at the end of each section, etc. What I might like is to allow this: \newnote{chapternote}[chapter] \chapternote takes an argument (the note), numbering restarts at each chapter. \newnote{note}[section] Numbering restarts at each section. \newnote{endnote} Numbering never restarts. OK, but where do the notes go? The command \note generates a command \show. At each `\showchapternote', all the `\chapternotes' collected this far and not already shown will be displayed. Likewise for all the other self-defined notes. This command should do nothing to the numbering. A warning should be displayed if there are notes that are not shown at when LaTeX has finished processing the document. This may be overdoing it a bit. But I think this would be beautiful. Suggestions? From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 22 16:13:42 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05435; Wed, 22 Apr 92 16:13:39 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 14:31 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6392; Wed, 22 Apr 92 03:23:55 PDT Date: Wed, 22 Apr 92 11:08:04 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Citations, footnotes, endnotes Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU In parallel with Rolf Lindgren, I've been wondering about citations, endnotes and footnotes. I'll probably post a more thought-out item on the subject within the next fortnight or so. For the time being: * ISO 690 gives a reasonable summary of what various disciplines do as regards citation schemes. It covers reference by number, author-date and citations from footnotes. * I agree that author-date functionality should come as standard, but I wouldn't be inclined to give psychologists any more weight than any other discipline in deciding what it should look like. (Lots of other science/technical/medical publications specify author-date.) For general-purpose summaries of the functionality required, I'd suggest ISO 690 or the Chicago Manual of Style. Note particularly the "If the author occurs naturally in the sentence, ... " bit, whence things like " ... noted by Stieg (1981, p. 556)." need support. * Footnotes may or may not contain citations. If they do, they are likely to use the "short form" scheme, i.e., a fairly full reference in the first footnote that cites a particular source with a short form in subsequent footnotes that cite the same source. There is structure within the footnote. But within this general pattern, there seems more variation between publishers than there is with (e.g.) author-date: some don't have a bibliography because "It's all in the first footnote"; some don't have any more in the first footnote than in subsequent ones because "It's all in the bibliography". * Similarly, endnotes may or may not contain citations. To some extent one can regard endnotes as an alternative to footnotes, but: - some works have both (see Chicago Manual of Style, page 414) - writing style for endnotes differs from that for footnotes (see, for example, Chicago Manual of Style, page 412) So I doubt whether one can regard endnote as "the same logical structure" as footnote. * Does anyone know anything about the conventions adopted by lawyers? If so, can they point out any analysis of the structure of works about law. I know that the Harvard Law Review Association publishes "A uniform system of citation", but lawyers seem to do other things for which I haven't managed to find a "style book". (Whereas other disciplines have bibliographies, which we know about, lawyers seem to have "table of cases" with cross-references from "table of cases" to "page on which case was cited"; citations in footnotes seem to be a lawyer's variation of "short form"; citations in footnotes ae presumably referring back to the "table of cases". I guess that "table of cases" is a bit like "an index". Is there a law guru on this list?) I'm not sure about having, in the .tex file, things like: * whether footnotes should span the entire footer * \newnote{chapternote}[chapter], \newnote{note}[section], \newnote{endnote} Would they result in "authors" messing around with what is really "the designer's job" (i.e, should be done in the "style file")? Would they achieve the endnote effects that may be required (see, for example, figures 15.1, 15.2 and 15.6 of the Chicago Manual of Style)? [I'd guess that, as regards endnotes, "at end of chapter" or "in end-matter, near end of book" would cater for most requirements.] As I said, I hope to post something more constructive within the next couple of weeks. David Rhead d.rhead@uk.ac.nottingham.ccc.vme From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 22 16:14:14 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05449; Wed, 22 Apr 92 16:14:12 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 14:32 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7182; Wed, 22 Apr 92 04:31:36 PDT Date: Wed, 22 Apr 92 12:31:36 BST From: CHAA006@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK Subject: RE: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU I support the `ignore spaces before bound objects' philosophy. ** Phil. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 22 16:17:05 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05484; Wed, 22 Apr 92 16:17:03 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 14:40 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 9112; Wed, 22 Apr 92 06:02:22 PDT Date: Wed, 22 Apr 92 14:03:32 BST From: CHAA006@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK Subject: RE: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU >> Nelson Beebe writes: >> Another macro I'd like to see changed the same way is \index{} and its >> relatives like \glossary, where it is equally vital that the index >> reference be tagged to the preceding word. I've more than once been >> bitten by text like this: >> text text text >> \index{first entry} >> \index{second entry} >> text text text >> But neither \index nor \glossary produce a reference, so what is it >> that you want to see changed? `Produce a reference' seems somewhat ambiguous to me. But I can certainly see what Nelson means: could line-break (and subsequently page-break) between and , yielding an erroneous index entry. It would therefore be highly advantageous to ensure that was always tied to the preceding material. ** Phil. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 22 16:34:34 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AB05603; Wed, 22 Apr 92 16:34:31 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 22 Apr 1992 15:18 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6652; Wed, 22 Apr 92 08:58:05 PDT Date: Wed, 22 Apr 92 15:49:52 +0200 From: Rainer Schoepf Subject: RE: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? In-Reply-To: CHAA006@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK's message of Wed, 22 Apr 92 14:03:32 BST <199204221306.AA18373@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU >> Another macro I'd like to see changed the same way is \index{} and its >> relatives like \glossary, where it is equally vital that the index >> reference be tagged to the preceding word. I've more than once been >> bitten by text like this: >> text text text >> \index{first entry} >> \index{second entry} >> text text text >> But neither \index nor \glossary produce a reference, so what is it >> that you want to see changed? `Produce a reference' seems somewhat ambiguous to me. But I can certainly see what Nelson means: could line-break (and subsequently page-break) between and , yielding an erroneous index entry. It would therefore be highly advantageous to ensure that was always tied to the preceding material. ** Phil. Actually, Phil, the situation is much more complicated. The crucial point is that \index should behave as if it wasn't there---which it does, if you have only one \index command or if you have several of them, but do not write any index entries. It does this by checking whether it is preceded by whitespace, and, if so, by executing an \ignorespaces at the end. However, this goes wrong if there is more than one \index since the second doesn't see the whitespace preceding the first, and the \ignorespaces executed by the first one prevents the second one to see the whitespace in between. Have a look at latex.tex and tell me if you can come up with a solution that works in both inner and outer horizontal and vertical mode. (Outer vertical mode is, of course, one of the tricky bits.) Rainer From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue Apr 21 05:03:50 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA22535; Tue, 21 Apr 92 05:03:48 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 21 Apr 1992 05:03 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 3983; Tue, 21 Apr 92 04:02:49 PDT Date: Tue, 21 Apr 92 11:41:05 +0200 From: Rainer Schoepf Subject: Ignore spaces before \footnote ? In-Reply-To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"'s message of Thu, 16 Apr 92 12:07:05 MDT <199204161809.AA10213@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Nelson Beebe writes: Another macro I'd like to see changed the same way is \index{} and its relatives like \glossary, where it is equally vital that the index reference be tagged to the preceding word. I've more than once been bitten by text like this: text text text \index{first entry} \index{second entry} text text text But neither \index nor \glossary produce a reference, so what is it that you want to see changed? Rainer Schoepf From LISTSERV@DHDURZ1.BITNET Thu Apr 23 08:18:10 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA10893; Thu, 23 Apr 92 08:18:06 MDT Received: from DHDURZ1 (MAILER@DHDURZ1) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 23 Apr 1992 08:17 MST Received: by DHDURZ1 (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 5323; Thu, 23 Apr 92 16:16:38 CET Date: Thu, 23 Apr 92 16:16:31 CET From: ListEARN List Processor (1.3) Subject: Output of your job "LATEX-L" To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Message-Id: <66BEC9955205880F@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Your mail file (5610) of Thu, 23 Apr 92 08:12:37 MDT was successfully DISTRIBUTEd to 142 recipients of LATEX-L@DHDURZ1. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Fri Apr 24 13:48:02 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA23033; Fri, 24 Apr 92 13:48:00 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Fri, 24 Apr 1992 13:47 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2549; Fri, 24 Apr 92 12:46:06 PDT Date: Fri, 24 Apr 92 21:18:48 MET From: Piotr Wlaz Subject: two-column and long tables Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <5DF70FDCEE00332E@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU LaTeX 2.xx does not allow to switch between one- and two-column mode on single page. This is not important for mathematicians, however, not only mathematician s are LaTeX users. Making this possible, I guess, could be an essential extensi on of LaTeX flexibility. Similarly, inability to divide automatically long tabl es is also inconvenient. This can be done with WordPerfect 5.1 without any tric ks. Piotr (vet doc) From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sun Apr 26 03:34:47 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA02193; Sun, 26 Apr 92 03:34:46 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sun, 26 Apr 1992 03:34 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8543; Sun, 26 Apr 92 02:33:47 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Apr 92 10:28:53 +0100 From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: L3 suggestion: different file extension Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <9AB5BE2BAE009F3A@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU This may be a bit radical, but could it be possible for LaTeX files to have the extension .ltx instead of .tex? I assume this is a function of tex the program, rather than of the LaTeX macros. But I mention it in case there is some clever way to achieve this by macro programming (Frank, Rainer and others have already managed several things I would have said were impossible with TeX). Dominik From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sun Apr 26 09:32:20 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA04609; Sun, 26 Apr 92 09:32:19 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sun, 26 Apr 1992 09:32 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 1340; Sun, 26 Apr 92 08:31:16 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Apr 92 17:29:34 +0200 From: Kresten Krab Thorup Subject: L3 suggestion: different file extension In-Reply-To: <9204260933.AA18413@danpost2.uni-c.dk> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Dominik Wujastyk writes: > >This may be a bit radical, but could it be possible for LaTeX files >to have the extension .ltx instead of .tex? > >I assume this is a function of tex the program, rather than of the >LaTeX macros. But I mention it in case there is some clever way >to achieve this by macro programming (Frank, Rainer and others >have already managed several things I would have said were impossible >with TeX). As TeX is now, it's not possible. The .tex extension is hardcoded into the program, and cant possibly be altered, without changing the TeX itself, and it would be impossible, to have all TeX installations changed to reflect this. The problem is not even specific to the command line, which at first glance may seem the only problem, but also, \input like commands, will fail, because, if you ask TeX to load the file `myfile' It will first try to see if it can find any files that are actually called `myfile', and then try `myfile.tex'. If a new macro for \input was coded to use `.ltx' as extension, it had to try to see if the expansion of the argument matched `.ltx' at the end, and then if not *always* apply this extension (This is quite hard to accomplish). You'd miss the possibility of having a name with either no extension or a extension different from `.ltx'. The other matter, the command line, is even harder. As TeX processes this, (or some pseudo first line of the document), the macro package (LaTeX) has not yet been loaded, and as so, I believe you can see why it's hard. In my oppinion it's a shame. In general, TeX i/o system is not much configurable in any way... Also, it would be nice if one could change the look of error messages, and also make some better way of displaying the fact that a file is beeing loaded. This is currently written as processing , which is quite hard to parse for some external program for possibly further processing. (I've made an attempt on writing a such parser for my LaTeX mode, AUC TeX, but it's much too heuristic (does guessing)). /Kresten From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sun Apr 26 11:03:17 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05463; Sun, 26 Apr 92 11:03:16 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sun, 26 Apr 1992 11:03 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2327; Sun, 26 Apr 92 10:02:16 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Apr 92 19:01:45 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: column switching and long tables Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > LaTeX 2.xx does not allow to switch between one- and two-column mode > on single page. This is not important for mathematicians, however, not > only mathematicians are LaTeX users. Making this possible, I guess, > could be an essential extension of LaTeX flexibility. Agreed. For this reason I wrote the multicol package to run under LaTeX209. However, this package is far from perfect for several reasons and I hope that we will be able to improve the ltx3 output routine to handle this important part with more ease. Switching between different column widthes on the same page, however introduces a few conceptual problems. They all have to do with ``floats''. When the number of columns are changed then one needs to balance the already gathered column material. This openes the question of how to place floats from within this material. I would be very interested in hearing suggestions about possible alorithms (only the concepts, not the implementation :-) for placing such things. ********************************************************************** * This is a serious request. The topic is far from trivial. Try * writing up some rules to use in such a situation. This would give a * perfect discussion base. ********************************************************************** Another important problem is the handling of footnotes. Where do we place them on the current page? The multicol.sty solves this problem by using pagewide footnotes at the bottom of the page so that different column widths don't pose problems but this is not really nice. On the other hand placing them at the end of the balanced material is only adequate when we make up journals where the balancing of columns is done to indicate the end of some article. So again suggestions and comments are welcome. > Similarly, inability to divide automatically long tables is also > inconvenient. This can be done with WordPerfect 5.1 without any > tricks. How nice :-) Yes, this will be possible with ltx3 tabluar material. Frank From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sun Apr 26 11:03:50 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05480; Sun, 26 Apr 92 11:03:49 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sun, 26 Apr 1992 11:03 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2331; Sun, 26 Apr 92 10:02:51 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Apr 92 19:02:20 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: L3 suggestion: different file extension Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > Subj: L3 suggestion: different file extension > > This may be a bit radical, but could it be possible for LaTeX files > to have the extension .ltx instead of .tex? > > I assume this is a function of tex the program, rather than of the > LaTeX macros. But I mention it in case there is some clever way > to achieve this by macro programming (Frank, Rainer and others > have already managed several things I would have said were impossible > with TeX). This is in fact more or less a function of the program, more exactly the default is defined in the pool file. Of course, it is possible to do clever things to the input file names, as long as the LaTeX convention of surrounding the argument of \input with braces is obeyed, but if we also allow \input foo.bar then things become difficult. As a matter of fact, I intend to discourage the native \input form anyway, because having the filename available allows to maintain a stack of currently open files and as a consequence allows to produce warnings and error messages of the form ... on line 17 of file foo which I find very helpful. The advantages of having a separate extention is clear for environments where several flavors of TeX are used side by side, but there are also disadvantages. I know for example some shells for the Atari where the shell insist that a tex file has the extension `.tex'. This makes the use of files like multicol.drv nearly impossible to process without renaming. We may run into similar problems if we try to force extensions from within ltx3. What should be the correct order of processing? One solution if we encounter \input{foo} could be: - test for foo.ltx by appending .ltx - if not found test for foo.tex by appending .tex - if not found try native foo this may not work on every system. Alternatively we could first check if foo contains a `.' if so use it directly, and otherwise try foo.ltx. Suggestions? Frank From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sun Apr 26 11:06:28 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05523; Sun, 26 Apr 92 11:06:26 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sun, 26 Apr 1992 11:06 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2343; Sun, 26 Apr 92 10:05:25 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Apr 92 19:05:00 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: patching the pool file Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Dominik's extension question reminded me of some other solution, which may or may not be feasible. I would be interested in suggestions about this topic. As I said in the other message the default extension (i.e. .tex) is recorded in the pool file. This pool file will be produced when the TeX program is compiled. It also contains all the error messages and a few other things. You can change such things with a change file to the web source of TeX and in fact this is actually allowed for certain things like error messages and default extensions, etc. Alternatively one can patch the pool file directly,. Since this is an ascii file such a patch is not very diffcult. One could even write a TeX program that does the patch by reading the system pool file and outputs a different one. So one solution to the extension problem (i.e. making .ltx the default extension) would be a separate pool file for ltx3. Such a pool file could be automatically generated from an existing one if necessary. To install ltx3 it would then be necessary to use the ltx3 pool file instead of the usual one. This could be achieved by renaming the pool file for format generation. The advantage of such a pool file switch would be a much better error handling (beside the extension change). Internal TeX errors are tailored to the plain format and usually are not very instructive in the LaTeX context, e.g., you get informed about looking into the TeXbook or to remove offending \cr's or don't use \hbox'es etc. By using different error messages for LaTeX one would help the casual users very much. I'm not saying that this *is* feasible. There are many considerations that are not in favour of such a solution. But I think we should consider the idea at least theoretical and therefore like to invite comments. Frank From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sun Apr 26 12:40:37 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05807; Sun, 26 Apr 92 12:40:36 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sun, 26 Apr 1992 12:40 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 3902; Sun, 26 Apr 92 11:39:31 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Apr 92 19:38:51 +0100 From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: L3 suggestion: different file extension Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU \begin{quotation} > > This may be a bit radical, but could it be possible for LaTeX files > > to have the extension .ltx instead of .tex? > ... > What should be the correct order of processing? > One solution if we encounter \input{foo} could be: > > - test for foo.ltx by appending .ltx > - if not found test for foo.tex by appending .tex > - if not found try native foo > > this may not work on every system. > > Alternatively we could first check if foo contains a `.' if so use it > directly, and otherwise try foo.ltx. > > Suggestions? \end{quotation} In EDMAC, John and I have allowed the user to specify, with a macro \extensionchar, a character to be used as an optional part of "aux" files. EDMAC's default is filename.1, filename.2, and so on. But if \extensionchar is set to "!", then files will be created as filename.!1, filename.!2, and so on. In other words, one can give the user a macro to specify those parts of file names which might be system- specific, like the "." in DOS. I'm not sure this has any relevance to L3, but I just mention it as an idea. Dominik From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Sun Apr 26 12:51:30 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05825; Sun, 26 Apr 92 12:51:29 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Sun, 26 Apr 1992 12:51 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4017; Sun, 26 Apr 92 11:50:22 PDT Date: Sun, 26 Apr 92 19:48:39 +0100 From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: Re: patching the pool file Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU \begin{quotation} > So one solution to the extension problem (i.e. making .ltx the default > extension) would be a separate pool file for ltx3. Such a pool file > could be automatically generated from an existing one if necessary. To > install ltx3 it would then be necessary to use the ltx3 pool file > instead of the usual one. This could be achieved by renaming the pool > file for format generation. \end{quotation} Once, a long time ago, I did do exactly this with sbTeX's tex.poo file. I just did a search-and-replace for the string ".tex" and changed it to ".ltx", and got exactly the result I wanted, with no apparent problems at all. I reverted to normal usage, however, since I was reluctant to use a non-standard TeX. However, I never experimented with help messages etc. It never occured to me, though, that such a change could be done by a macro at the time of LaTeX format installation. Very interesting idea. I think that meddling with the pool file *is* something that could indeed be seriously beneficial, but of course one has to weigh up the pros and cons very carefully. Does this impinge on things like the trip test? I assume the trip test only applies to TeX+plain. What is the actual status of tex.pool. Is it considered an integral part of tex.the.program, which -- if changed -- would make TeX a different program? Changing tex.pool with clever macros might be dangerously system-specific. On the other hand, the fact that it is done using tex's input/output might make it system-free(er). Dominik From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 27 02:18:01 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA08766; Mon, 27 Apr 92 02:17:59 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 02:17 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 5135; Mon, 27 Apr 92 01:16:35 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 09:17:42 +0000 From: p.abbott@ASTON.AC.UK Subject: Re: L3 suggestion: different file extension Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <591C151C6E00C836@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > > >This may be a bit radical, but could it be possible for LaTeX files >to have the extension .ltx instead of .tex? > >I assume this is a function of tex the program, rather than of the >LaTeX macros. But I mention it in case there is some clever way >to achieve this by macro programming (Frank, Rainer and others >have already managed several things I would have said were impossible >with TeX). > >Dominik > Can I support Dominik in a request for a different extension. I find that when files are sent to me I would be able to classify them as TeX or LaTeX and store accordingly. I know that I simply have to open the file and look at the first few lines but my mailer splits large files into parts and the first one I see need not be the first part of the file. Peter Tel 44 (0)21 359 5492 direct FAX 44 (0)21 359 6158 From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 27 03:14:15 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA08909; Mon, 27 Apr 92 03:14:13 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 03:13 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 5923; Mon, 27 Apr 92 02:12:58 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 10:12:57 BST From: Dave Love Subject: Re: patching the pool file In-Reply-To: <9204261716.AA08063@nnsa> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <60FC80E07E00CE5A@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was fx%nnsa@NNGA.DARESBURY.AC.UK Isn't it true that web2c doesn't use the pool file? I just ran latex OK with a web2c TeX after moving it. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 27 03:29:08 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA08963; Mon, 27 Apr 92 03:29:07 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 03:28 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6063; Mon, 27 Apr 92 02:28:08 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 11:26:41 +0200 From: Jan Michael Rynning Subject: Re: patching the pool file In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 Apr 92 10:12:57 BST Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <631611261E00CF7B@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > Isn't it true that web2c doesn't use the pool file? I just ran latex > OK with a web2c TeX after moving it. Like all (most?) other TeX implementations, web2c reads tex.pool when you run initex to create a new format. The strings in tex.pool go into the format file along with everything else. When you type ``latex'', virtex reads the tex.pool strings from the format file. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 27 06:00:02 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA11082; Mon, 27 Apr 92 06:00:01 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 05:59 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7886; Mon, 27 Apr 92 04:58:48 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 10:30:49 +0000 From: p.abbott@ASTON.AC.UK Subject: Re: column switching and long tables Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <7827AB2C3E00BD59@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > >I would be very interested in hearing suggestions about possible >alorithms (only the concepts, not the implementation :-) for placing >such things. > >********************************************************************** >* This is a serious request. The topic is far from trivial. Try >* writing up some rules to use in such a situation. This would give a >* perfect discussion base. >********************************************************************** > To my simple mind it should be possible to specify an object to float to the bottom of the current column if there is sufficent space if not to the top of the next column. You should be able to specify that an object will float to the top of the next column. i.e \begin{object}[b] ...... \end{object} \begin{object}[t] ..... \end{object} and therefore \begin{object} .... \end{object} means put the object here in the column. Peter Tel 44 (0)21 359 5492 direct FAX 44 (0)21 359 6158 From LISTSERV@DHDURZ1.BITNET Mon Apr 27 07:17:20 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA12429; Mon, 27 Apr 92 07:17:18 MDT Received: from DHDURZ1 (MAILER@DHDURZ1) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 07:17 MST Received: by DHDURZ1 (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4156; Mon, 27 Apr 92 15:15:43 CET Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 15:15:41 CET From: ListEARN List Processor (1.3) Subject: Output of your job "LATEX-L" To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Message-Id: <82F0DDEEDE00CA40@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Your mail file (4409) of Mon, 27 Apr 92 07:14:02 MDT was successfully DISTRIBUTEd to 141 recipients of LATEX-L@DHDURZ1. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 27 07:52:53 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA12760; Mon, 27 Apr 92 07:52:51 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 07:52 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2809; Mon, 27 Apr 92 06:51:19 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 14:44:19 BST From: Dave Love Subject: Re: patching the pool file In-Reply-To: <9204271031.AA08573@nnsa> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <87ECD8C80E00BA3E@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was fx%nnsa@NNGA.DARESBURY.AC.UK Sorry, I promise to wake up before posting again. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 27 08:09:44 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA12802; Mon, 27 Apr 92 08:09:42 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 08:09 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 3746; Mon, 27 Apr 92 07:08:34 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 16:06:51 CET From: Michael Downes Subject: Re: L3 suggestion: different file extension In-Reply-To: <01GJAVDN6PXWD7PQRI@MATH.AMS.COM> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <8A43F0DA9E00D554@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Kresten wrote: > >This may be a bit radical, but could it be possible for LaTeX files > >to have the extension .ltx instead of .tex? > > > >I assume this is a function of tex the program, rather than of the > >LaTeX macros. But I mention it in case there is some clever way > >to achieve this by macro programming (Frank, Rainer and others > >have already managed several things I would have said were impossible > >with TeX). > > As TeX is now, it's not possible. The .tex extension is hardcoded > into the program, and cant possibly be altered, without changing the > TeX itself, and it would be impossible, to have all TeX installations > changed to reflect this. Actually I believe you can make .ltx work instead of .tex by editing the string pool file (since there is the same number of letters in both extensions you can do this without changing the checksum). This is at least not as difficult as editing the TeX executable. Here using TeX with VAX/VMS we have used this method to change TeX's .log to .lis because .log is a standard file extension for VMS command procedure log files and we want to avoid the possibility of conflicts. > The problem is not even specific to the command line, which at > first glance may seem the only problem, but also, \input like > commands, will fail, because, if you ask TeX to load the file `myfile' > It will first try to see if it can find any files that are actually > called `myfile', and then try `myfile.tex'. If a new macro for \input > was coded to use `.ltx' as extension, it had to try to see if the > expansion of the argument matched `.ltx' at the end, and then if not > *always* apply this extension (This is quite hard to accomplish). > You'd miss the possibility of having a name with either no extension > or a extension different from `.ltx'. Changing the string pool file would avoid these problems, but introduce some new ones perhaps, e.g. if someone tries to use a non-LaTeX-specific add-on package such as pictex.tex that makes any use of \input (PiCTeX defines some commands such as \!plotfromfile which use \input). > In my oppinion it's a shame. In general, TeX i/o system is not much > configurable in any way... Also, it would be nice if one could change > the look of error messages, and also make some better way of > displaying the fact that a file is beeing loaded. This is currently > written as processing , which is > quite hard to parse for some external program for possibly further > processing. (I've made an attempt on writing a such parser for my > LaTeX mode, AUC TeX, but it's much too heuristic (does guessing)). I have experimented with the approach of requiring always \input{...} and never \input ... terminated by \space or \relax or arbitrary non-expandable non-character command. This allows one to define \input to do whatever---in particular, to record the file name so that \inputfilename is always available like \inputlineno. You could add messages in the definition of \input so that extra information is written to the log file: ... <<*Reading file: (filename.tex ... ) *>> Come to think of it, this probably could be achieved by changing the string pool file also, since the opening and closing parentheses of file name messages are also in the string pool. But not without changing the checksum. For more extensive changes to the string pool, it would be best to make a WEB change file rather than editing the string pool file directly. This would however allow some other nice customizations such as changing error and help messages, e.g. change ! Undefined control sequence. to ! Undefined command. which is more in keeping with the language of the LaTeX manual. Michael Downes mjd@math.ams.com (Internet) From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon Apr 27 15:15:49 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA00771; Mon, 27 Apr 92 15:15:47 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 27 Apr 1992 13:29 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 0952; Mon, 27 Apr 92 12:25:32 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Apr 92 21:24:40 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: arguments pro/con patching the pool Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Michael said: > Come to think of it, this probably could be achieved by changing the > string pool file also, since the opening and closing parentheses of > file name messages are also in the string pool. But not without > changing the checksum. For more extensive changes to the string pool, > it would be best to make a WEB change file rather than editing the > string pool file directly. This would however allow some other nice > customizations such as changing error and help messages, e.g. change > It is in fact not necessary to touch the checksum; TeX will happily use a patched pool as long as the checksum stays the same and the two digits in front of every line correctly reflect the number of characters in the line. That way I provided german error messages under PC-TeX four or five years ago. The question of whether or not patching the pool file is allowed under Don's understanding of his copyright to TeX is interesting and if there should be finally good reasons to addopt such a strategy I will explicity talk to him about it the next time I do meet him. Nelson said that another strategy would be to make a general agreed addition to every change file for every TeX implementation. This would be another way but this would mean that the additional benefit like making the latex error messages better wouldn't be possible. In any way, if such a change would come it would be easy to incorporate it into ltx3 under whatever scheme we use. The main argument against patching in my eyes is that it makes the installation of latex more difficult. This may be okay for unix etc. since installation can be done by providing a makefile, but for the many single users out there with some PC or whatever it would mean that they need to understand much more about the system. I'm not sure if it would be possible to provide some sort of installation script for every major platform. But perhaps, people can prove me wrong there? Frank From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue Apr 28 01:19:16 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA04793; Tue, 28 Apr 92 01:19:13 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 28 Apr 1992 01:18 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6592; Tue, 28 Apr 92 00:17:36 PDT Date: Tue, 28 Apr 92 08:13:00 GMT From: malcolm Subject: Re: L3 suggestion: different file extension Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <1A1283F38E010F54@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU i'm a bit loath to enter this erudite examination of file name extensions. as a decided wimp (sensu operating system), i'm largely hidden from the horrors of more antiquated operating systems. having said that, i have a feeling that OzTeX does accept a .ltx extension (somehow). i always thought that was wrong (sensu non-canonical TeX), but i may be wrong too. any OzTeX users out there? i assume this discussion is really more weight for the `ein reich, ein volk, ein unix' world view? not a cynical comment, just a feeling that it is a tad inward looking, failing to look to the future of operating systems too. again, i'm probably wrong. what do i know about operating systems (or the future). more important to me: will i be able to have blank spaces in the names of my documents (file names to you)? i resent having to type that stupid underscore. malcolm From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue Apr 28 05:39:55 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA07094; Tue, 28 Apr 92 05:39:53 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 28 Apr 1992 05:39 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 0091; Tue, 28 Apr 92 04:38:53 PDT Date: Tue, 28 Apr 92 12:36:02 BST From: CHAA006@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK Subject: Re: L3 suggestion: different file extension Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <3E85695CEE009B3F@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU >>> more important to me: will i be able to have blank >>> spaces in the names of my documents (file names to you)? >>> i resent having to type that stupid underscore. On VM/CMS, you always could! From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 29 06:36:41 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA17193; Wed, 29 Apr 92 06:36:39 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 29 Apr 1992 06:36 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2071; Wed, 29 Apr 92 05:35:37 PDT Date: Wed, 29 Apr 92 08:43:57 +0000 From: p.abbott@ASTON.AC.UK Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <0F9C4026CE016D77@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU A more general algorithm for placing of floats could be In an environment of 'n' columns a float can be 1 to n columns wide. I do mean n and not n-1 A float can appear at the bottom of the current column(s) provided that there is sufficient space left at the point that it is encountered in the input stream. If there is insufficient space then it can appear at the bottom of the next column(s) if there are sufficent columns otherwise on a separate page. A float can appear at the top of the next column(s) provided that there are sufficient columns otherwise on a separate page. A float can appear 'here' across the column(s). Personally I think this option is dreadful but I have seen books where it has been used. You never know which text follows which. Peter Tel 44 (0)21 359 5492 direct FAX 44 (0)21 359 6158 Tel 44 (0)21 359 5492 direct FAX 44 (0)21 359 6158 From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Thu Apr 30 08:49:46 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA27757; Thu, 30 Apr 92 08:49:43 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Thu, 30 Apr 1992 08:47 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8713; Thu, 30 Apr 92 07:45:56 PDT Date: Thu, 30 Apr 92 15:55:36 MEZ From: Peter Schmitt Subject: Re: L3 suggestion: different file extension In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 27 Apr 92 16:06:51 CET from Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU A rather late addition to the Change-Pool-File-Discussion: (1) I have used this method to change the .fmt extension (this allows me to have Format-Files of different implementations in the same directory) and to change the default paths for input- and tfm-Files (there were no difficulties with checksums - I only had to change the string length at the beginning of the line) (2) Since I did not like the default directory structures (and, in adddition, wanted only one directory tree) I also patched the .exe files of emtex and sbtex (with a binary editor) to change the default format directory, environment variable names, and pool file name (to have them in the same format directory). This worked well, but it is, of course, a purely individual solution. Moreover, I think that a good choice of defaults is convenient, but too environment and system dependent - and dependent on personal preferences and working habits - to be made on a general level. It is not at all necessary to world-wide compatible - incoming files can be renamed - \input statements may contain the complete filename - in many cases defaults can be implemented via batchfiles And a last remark: I did not try it yet - but shouldn't it be quite easy to redefine \input to handle a .ltx extension? Peter Schmitt a8131dal@awiuni11.bitnet schmitt@awirap.bitnet ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Institute of Mathematics Strudlhofgasse 4 University of Vienna A-1090 Wien Austria From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Fri May 1 07:15:17 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA06079; Fri, 1 May 92 07:15:15 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Fri, 1 May 1992 07:13 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 3244; Fri, 01 May 92 06:11:12 PDT Date: Fri, 1 May 92 14:57:23 CET From: Berthold BENNY Reif Subject: Re: patching the pool file In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 27 Apr 92 14:44:19 BST from Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Berthold 'Benny' Reif |Best wishes from the beautiful south reib@ibm.ruf.uni-freiburg.de|of germany reib@dfrruf1.bitnet| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 4 17:43:08 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA29351; Mon, 4 May 92 17:43:06 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 4 May 1992 17:42 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7358; Mon, 04 May 92 16:41:54 PDT Date: Tue, 5 May 92 01:29:00 +0100 From: "Johannes L. Braams" Subject: Re: From Leslie: editorial views Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <5A871744E0023B2E@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Comments: This mail was sent by PMDF V4.0 Hear hear JB. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue May 5 08:43:50 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05010; Tue, 5 May 92 08:43:49 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 5 May 1992 08:43 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8475; Tue, 05 May 92 07:42:26 PDT Date: Tue, 5 May 92 13:23:42 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form citation system Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Footnotes were mentioned a while back, and I suggested that those footnotes that are making citations have internal structure. I've had a go at isolating that structure, and how a user-interface might cope (and help the user to cope) with that structure. You'll get details in the following 3 mail messages. * I seem to remember that, at the meeting in London about a year ago, someone said " ... macros ... " and someone else said " ... put some comments in the macros ... " and then Rainer said "No. First write the documentation!". In this spirit, the first mail message illustrates how a manual might describe the suggested interface. * The second message is a test file. If you can think of a better user-interface, than the one I've suggested, you might like to use this test file to test your ideas. * The 3rd message is a .sty file that implements some of the commands defined by the first mail message. As the comments say, it is only intended to be good enough to illustrate the suggested interface. (If anyone does a more elegant version, could they let me have a copy, please?) Main questions: "Would something like the suggested interface do what humanities people want? If not, what would?" David Rhead JANET: d.rhead@uk.ac.nottingham.ccc.vme From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue May 5 08:47:01 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05027; Tue, 5 May 92 08:47:00 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 5 May 1992 08:46 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8705; Tue, 05 May 92 07:45:56 PDT Date: Tue, 5 May 92 13:37:48 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form citation system: beginnings of .sty file Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU % This style-option was produced quickly, by hacking at other people's code. % I've been reluctant to change too much, in case nothing at all then worked. % Someone who (unlike me) knows what they are doing could tidy this up a lot. % However, there seems little point in doing that until a decision has been % taken about what the user interface should actually be. % Thus the purpose of this style-option is to demonstrate that the % suggested interface is probably implementable. It is unlikely to be % robust enough for production use. % David Rhead % May 1992 % REFERENCE LISTS % To get something with which to experiment, reflist is based on verse. % \def\reflist{\let\\=\@centercr \list{}{\itemsep\z@ \itemindent -1.5em\listparindent \itemindent \advance\leftmargin -1.0em}\item[]} \let\endreflist\endlist % ---------- \let\citation\@gobble \def\@cite#1#2{{#1\if@tempswa , #2\fi}} % SHORT FORM % The stuff about , and [] is here because this code was produced by % hacking at other people's code. I think it could be removed. % (If short form only allows key, not key-list, we don't need to cater % for commas. If references to particular pages will be done by working % \firstcite or \latercite into sentences, we don't need to cater for [].) % None of \footfirst, \footlater, \endfirst or \endlater have been % implemented. % Care needs taking that the right amount of space is ignored, e.g., % I think that, in { ref-list-entry } the space before the } needs % ignoring, but space after the } shouldn't be ignored. \def\sfentry#1#2#3#4{#4\if@filesw {\def\protect##1{\string ##1\space}\immediate \write\@auxout{\string\sfauxentry{#1}{#2}{#3}}}\fi} \def\sfdata#1#2#3{\if@filesw {\def\protect##1{\string ##1\space}\immediate \write\@auxout{\string\sfauxentry{#1}{#2}{#3}}}\fi} \def\sfauxentry#1#2#3{ \global\@namedef{f@#1}{#2} \global\@namedef{l@#1}{#3} } \def\firstcite{\@ifnextchar [{\@tempswatrue\@firstcitex}{\@tempswafalse\@firstcitex[]}} \def\@firstcitex[#1]#2{\if@filesw\immediate\write\@auxout{\string\citation{#2}}\ fi \def\@citea{}\@cite{\@for\@citeb:=#2\do {\@citea\def\@citea{,\penalty\@m\ }\@ifundefined {f@\@citeb}{{\bf ?}\@warning {Citation `\@citeb' on page \thepage \space undefined}}% {\csname f@\@citeb\endcsname}}}{#1}} \def\latercite{\@ifnextchar [{\@tempswatrue\@latercitex}{\@tempswafalse\@latercitex[]}} \def\@latercitex[#1]#2{\if@filesw\immediate\write\@auxout{\string\citation{#2}}\ fi \def\@citea{}\@cite{\@for\@citeb:=#2\do {\@citea\def\@citea{,\penalty\@m\ }\@ifundefined {l@\@citeb}{{\bf ?}\@warning {Citation `\@citeb' on page \thepage \space undefined}}% {\csname l@\@citeb\endcsname}}}{#1}} From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 01:25:38 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA13601; Wed, 6 May 92 01:25:37 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 01:25 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6720; Wed, 06 May 92 00:24:25 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 00:57:01 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form citation system: files en route Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <644E605E1002FD6B@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Denys Duchier reports that the .sty file arrived, but I received neither the documentation nor the test file I suspect that the list-server (or something, somewhere) deals with short files first. For example, I received a message from Johannes, agreeing with Leslie, about 12 hours ago --- but I still haven't received a copy of whatever was being agreed with. The illustrative documentation and test file are considerably longer than the other two files. (I'm hoping that the present message, being short, will go quickly.) I also suspect that arbitrary delays of a couple of days can en route occur for no apparent reason. I'd suggest that people wait for a couple of days before worrying. (Incidentally, I forget to point out that the .sty file is the references.sty to which the others refer.) - David From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 02:48:30 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA13812; Wed, 6 May 92 02:48:27 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 02:47 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7580; Wed, 06 May 92 01:46:37 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 10:25:30 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: list name change Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <6FD247741002F466@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU When I mentioned that we probably had made a mistake by not changing the list name before opening up the list it was more stating a fact then thinking that this could be corrected. The name of the list is by now distributed so widely and appears in several articles which are already published or are about to be publish that I fear any name change comes to late. After all the idea is to give people interested a possibility to participate in the discussion and development and so switching to a new hidden name will not do. > I am sorry for causing all this uproar. But following the heated discussion > I just want to point out that LISTSERV explains LATEX-L as a socalled > "LaTeX-L Mailing list". People who see this comment and join the > list can never guess that this is only meant for those who want to contribute > to the development of LaTeX3. So I would propose to leave the listname > as it is but change the explanation to something like > "discussion aiming at the development of latex3.0". P. Stahl hits the point exactly and I think that his advice changing the bitnet description will help. After all, all helpful messages about new names has given us a bonus on messages unrelated to the real subject aready. So we should follow his suggestion and change the description as well as > Wishing us all a good discussion and let us return to what is important I wish everybody the same. cheers Frank Mittelbach From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 03:04:09 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA13861; Wed, 6 May 92 03:04:06 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 03:03 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7711; Wed, 06 May 92 02:02:34 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 10:47:17 +0200 From: Rainer Schoepf Subject: The list as ding an sich Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <7204C1710002ED15@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU David Rhead's recent message reminds me to announce some changes I made to the list setup recently: - The list description has been changed to "Mailing list for the LaTeX 3 project. - The rather useless numers in the subject line have been eliminated. - A message cannot have more than 500 lines. I'm sorry if this latter change has caused David's last message to disappear. (Actually it hasn't, but I cannot get at it at the moment). Rainer From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 08:42:56 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA16666; Wed, 6 May 92 08:42:53 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 08:42 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7859; Wed, 06 May 92 07:40:54 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 14:45:35 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form citations: big files Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Rainer advises that, in view of the 500 line limit, I should re-send my two big files in bits, which I will do. The "illustrative documentation" file is 476 lines long, so should in theory have got through, but I'll split it and re-send it anyway. - David From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 08:43:22 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA16670; Wed, 6 May 92 08:43:20 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 08:43 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7934; Wed, 06 May 92 07:41:59 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 15:02:41 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form stuff: illustrative documentation, part 1 Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU \documentstyle[11pt,references]{report} \sloppy \begin{document} \title{Short form citations:\\ how a manual might describe \\ the suggested user interface} \author{David Rhead} \date{May 1992} \maketitle \pagenumbering{roman} \tableofcontents \clearpage \pagenumbering{arabic} \dots\ improvements \dots\ major differences from \LaTeX\ 2.09 \dots\ (see Appendix \ref{old-friends}) \dots\ unless otherwise stated, references to ``\LaTeX'' mean \LaTeX\ 3 \dots\ \\[20mm] \dots\ ``maps'' a structure to a design \dots\ \\[20mm] \dots\ local ``supplementary documentation'' directory \dots\ \\[20mm] \dots\ local ``examples'' directory \dots\ \\[20mm] \dots\ \verb+\footnote+ \dots\ . Similarly, \dots\ \verb+\endnote+ \dots \setcounter{chapter}{6} \chapter{\dots} \section{Cross-references} \label{cross-refs} \chapter{Bibliographic references} \label{bib-refs} \section{Background and terminology} You may need to prepare a document that cites other documents. Most disciplines use citation systems in which the running text gives brief references to the sources consulted, and the document's ``end matter'' contains a detailed list of those sources. \LaTeX\ supports three of these standard citation systems: \begin{itemize} \item reference by number, in which text references take the form of superscript or bracketed numbers which correspond to numbers shown in the reference-list. \item author-date, in which a text reference generally uses the author's surname and the year of publication, and the reference-list is arranged in alphabetical order of surnames. \item short form, in which the first text reference to a particular source (or the first reference from a particular chapter) gives fairly full bibliographical details, but subsequent text references use a short form (e.g., the author's surname and an abbreviated title). This system is often used in the humanities, where references usually appear in footnotes (or endnotes). The corresponding reference-list may be organized according to the type of reference (for example, with all ``unpublished manuscripts'' grouped together). \end{itemize} Although most documents just use one citation system, there are circumstances (see section \ref{multiple-systems}) under which two or three citation systems may be used in parallel. \section{Reference-lists} Most citation systems involve a reference-list, which provides the details needed to identify and locate the cited documents. You may also wish to provide a list of documents (for example, as ``further reading'') to which you have {\em not\/} referred in your running text. The {\tt reflist} environment is provided for such purposes. To use {\tt reflist}, you must supply your reference-list entries as ``paragraphs'' within \verb+\begin{reflist}+ and \verb+\end{reflist}+. As with other aspects of your document, the layout of a {\tt reflist} will depend on the \dots\ % mapping file? you have chosen. (Most \dots\ % mapping files? lay reference-list entries out as ``hanging paragraphs''.) If you wish to use {\tt reflist} for documents that you have {\em not} cited in your running text, you can simply supply reference-list entries separated by blank lines, thus: \begin{verbatim} \section{Further reading} \begin{reflist} {\sc Crane, D.} {\it Invisible colleges.} Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1972. {\sc Stieg, M. F.} {\it The information needs of historians.} {\it College and Research Libraries}, Nov.\ 1981, {\bf 42}(6), p.\ 549--560. \end{reflist} \end{verbatim} However, if your reference-list is intended as a consolidated list of all the works cited from your running text, you will probably find it more convenient to put appropriate \verb+\...entry+ commands in a {\tt reflist} (see below). \section{References from running text: general approach} \LaTeX's general approach to text references is the same whichever of the three standard citation systems you use: \begin{itemize} \item A \verb+\...entry+ command is available with which you can: \begin{itemize} \item provide the text that is to appear in your reference-list \item if necessary, specify the details needed for text references. (No such details are needed for the reference by number system.) \item declare a ``key'' that will be used to determine which reference-list entry corresponds to a particular text reference. A key can consist of any sequence of letters, digits and punctuation characters, with the exception of comma (,). \end{itemize} \item One or more \verb+\...cite+ commands are provided with which you can make text references. For author-date and short form systems, the citation produced will be based on the information you supply in the corresponding \verb+\...entry+. \end{itemize} (Here \verb+\...entry+ and \verb+\...cite+ are used to indicate various commands whose full names are given in sections \ref{ref-by-number}, \ref{author-date} and \ref{short-form} below.) Thus, whatever your citation scheme, your \LaTeX\ input will have the following structure: \begin{raggedright}\begin{tt} \dots \\[\baselineskip] \dots\ \verb+\...cite{+{\it key\/}\verb+}+ \dots \\[\baselineskip] \dots \\[\baselineskip] \verb+\begin{reflist}+ \\[\baselineskip] \dots \\[\baselineskip] \verb+\...entry{+{\it key\/}\verb+}{+ \dots\ \verb+}+ \\[\baselineskip] \dots \\[\baselineskip] \verb+\end{reflist}+ \\[\baselineskip] \end{tt}\end{raggedright} Given such a structure, \LaTeX\ can: \begin{itemize} \item for the reference by number system, ensure that each text reference has the same number as the corresponding reference-list entry \item for the other systems, use details taken from a \verb+\...entry+ when a text reference is required. The details only need supplying once, in the \verb+\...entry+. All text references to a particular source will be consistent, since the details will be taken from the same \verb+\...entry+. \end{itemize} \LaTeX\ will also warn you if you make a text reference to a source without having supplied a reference-list entry for that source. The procedure used for passing details between a \verb+\...cite+ command and the corresponding \verb+\...entry+ command is a two-pass one, like that for resolving cross-references (see section \ref{cross-refs}). Hence, \dots \section{Reference by number} \label{ref-by-number} \dots\ order of first citation \dots\ \verb+\numcite+ \dots\ \verb+\numentry+ \dots % knows width, so can set hanging indent? \section{Author-date} \label{author-date} \dots\ \verb+\aycite+ \dots\ \verb+\ycite+ \dots\ \verb+\ayentry+ \dots \section{Short form} \label{short-form} \subsection{Basic facilities} The standard \dots\ % mapping files? provide the following commands to support the short form scheme: \begin{itemize} \item \verb+\sfentry+, with specification\\ \verb+\sfentry{+{\it key\/}\verb+}{+{\it first-text-ref\/}\verb+}{+{\it later-text-ref\/}\verb+}{+{\it ref-list-entry\/}\verb+}+\\ where: \begin{description} \item[{\it key}] is the key that, when used by text reference commands, identifies the particular \verb+\sfentry+ command which provides the information needed \item[{\it first-text-ref}] is the form of text reference to be used when you first cite the document identified by {\it key} (or for your first citation from a particular chapter) \item[{\it later-text-ref}] is the short form to be used for subsequent citations of the document identified by {\it key} \item[{\it ref-list-entry}] is to be used as the document's reference-list entry. (Thus, locally, the effect of a sequence of \verb+\sfentry+ commands within a {\tt reflist} environment is as if each \verb+\sfentry+ command had been replaced by its {\it ref-list-entry\/}.) \end{description} \item \verb+\firstcite+, for use when you make your first text reference to a particular source (or your first reference from a particular chapter). You will refer to the source by means of the {\it key} you chose for its \verb+\sfentry+ command. In your typeset document, the \verb+\firstcite+ will be replaced by the {\it first-text-ref\/} that you supplied in the corresponding \verb+\sfentry+. \item \verb+\latercite+, for use when you make your second or subsequent text reference to a particular source. In your typeset document, the command will be replaced by the {\it later-text-ref\/} supplied in the corresponding \verb+\sfentry+. \end{itemize} From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 08:45:10 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA16692; Wed, 6 May 92 08:45:08 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 08:44 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8051; Wed, 06 May 92 07:43:54 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 15:03:39 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form stuff: illustrative documentation, part 2 Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU \subsection{Example} \label{sf-example} If your input file contains \dots % assuming that, in LaTeX 3, \footnote ignores preceding spaces \begin{verbatim} \section{First citation} Text text text text \footnote{\firstcite{simple}.} text text text text. \section{Next citation} Text text text text \footnote{\latercite{simple}, p.\ 1.} text text text text. \section{References} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{simple}{Form for first text reference}{Form for subsequent text references}{Form for entry in reference-list.} \end{reflist} \end{verbatim} % and assuming that LaTeX 3 will ignore blanks before \footnote a particular \dots\ % structure-to-design mapping might give \dots \clearpage {\bf \dots\ First citation} \vspace{\baselineskip} Text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{simple}.} text text text text. \vspace{\baselineskip} {\bf \dots\ Next citation} \vspace{\baselineskip} Text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{simple}, p.\ 1.} text text text text. \clearpage {\bf \dots\ References} \vspace{\baselineskip} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{simple}{Form for first text reference}{Form for subsequent text references}{Form for entry in reference-list.} \end{reflist} \clearpage You will find some more realistic examples in the file {\tt shortform.tex} in your local examples directory. \subsection{Punctuation} \label{sf-punct} A text reference may cite the whole of a source, or a specific unit (e.g., a particular page) within the source. The two situations may require different punctuation. You will probably find it convenient to avoid having a punctuation character at the end of the {\it first-text-ref\/} and {\it later-text-ref\/} given in \verb+\sfentry+, and to add punctuation as necessary after your \verb+\firstcite+ or \verb+latercite+ (as shown in \ref{sf-example}'s example). \subsection{Other facilities} The standard \dots\ % structure-to-design mappings provide the following auxiliary commands: \begin{itemize} \item \verb+\sfdata+, which is identical to \verb+\sfentry+ except that it has no {\it ref-list-entry} argument and produces no text locally. This command is provided to cater for situations such as the following: \begin{itemize} \item you wish to lay a group of reference-list entries out ``by hand'' instead of relying on {\tt reflist}, but nevertheless wish to supply data for use by \verb+\firstcite+ and \verb+\latercite+. For example, you may wish to group related manuscript references together concisely under a suitable subheading, rather than letting {\tt reflist} format a lot of repetitive {\it ref-list-entry\/}s. \item you intend to let your readers rely on the bibliographic information given by your first text reference. You will not be providing a reference-list. \end{itemize} Since the function of \verb+\sfdata+ is to declare text for use in text references, rather than to produce text locally, such commands can, in theory, be put anywhere in your input file(s). In practice, it is a good idea to put them where they can be checked easily, e.g., \begin{itemize} \item adjacent to any corresponding reference-list entries that you are laying out by hand, or \item together in a file that contains only \verb+\sfdata+ commands. You can \verb+\input+ this file from your root file. \end{itemize} \item \verb+\footfirst+ and \verb+\footlater+, such that \verb+\footfirst{+{\it key\/}\verb+}+ and \verb+\footlater{+{\it key\/}\verb+}+ are equivalent to \verb+\footnote{\firstcite{+{\it key\/}\verb+}}+ and \verb+\footnote{\latercite{+{\it key\/}\verb+}}+ respectively. These commands reduce the keystrokes needed in the common situation when a footnote just contains one citation. Both commands have an optional argument that allows punctuation to be inserted between the end of the {\it \dots-text-ref\/} and the end of the footnote (as envisaged in section \ref{sf-punct}). For example, \verb+\footfirst[.]{simple}+ is equivalent to \verb+\footnote{\firstcite{simple}.}+. \item \verb+\endfirst+ and \verb+\endlater+, which bear the same relationship to \verb+\endnote+ that \verb+\footfirst+ and \verb+\footlater+ bear to \verb+\footnote+. \end{itemize} \subsection{Miscellaneous} \noindent \begin{enumerate} \item Unlike the analogous commands for reference by number and author-date, \verb+\firstcite+ and \verb+\latercite+ have a {\it key\/} argument rather than a {\it key-list\/} argument. Short form citations are generally worked into sentences, so it is assumed that you will deal with a sequence of citations by working a sequence of \verb+\firstcite+ and \verb+\latercite+ commands into a sentence. Similarly, there is no optional \dots\ % argument-argument ? for the {\it key\/} in \verb+\firstcite+ and \verb+\latercite+. You can specify particular pages, etc., as shown in section \ref{sf-example}'s example. \item If you wish to use terms such as ``ibid.''\ and ``loc.\ cit.'', you can of course do so. If you wish to refer back from a footnote in which a \verb+\latercite+ gives a {\it later-text-ref\/} to the footnote in which a \verb+\firstcite+ gives the {\it first-text-ref\/}, you can use \verb+\label+ and \verb+\ref+ to ensure that the number of the \verb+\firstcite+ footnote appears correctly in the \verb+\latercite+ footnote. But such conventions date from when an author submitted a typed manuscript for a typesetter to re-key. Your readers may have difficulty following citations that refer back to footnotes that are no longer visible (as when an ``ibid.'' occurs in the first footnote on a page). Perhaps, with \LaTeX, you would prefer to use \verb+\latercite+ rather than ``ibid.''\ or ``loc.\ cit.''? Perhaps it would be better to put more detail into your {\it later-text-ref} instead of making cross-references to earlier footnotes? \end{enumerate} \appendix \setcounter{chapter}{4} \chapter{Further details} \dots \section{Bibliographic references} \label{multiple-systems} The circumstances (mentioned in chapter \ref{bib-refs}) in which two or three different citation systems may be used in parallel include: \begin{itemize} \item conference proceedings, if an editor is prepared to allow contributors to choose their own citation system \item series of manuals. A short form system is sometimes used for references between one manual and another, with some other system used for references to other literature. \item documents that may be re-published in different house-styles. If two house-styles specify two different citation systems, the input files may need to contain ``mark up'' for both schemes, although only one scheme would be used at a time. For example:\\ {\tt ... Marshall and Lewitt's \verb+\dcite{marshall-lewitt}+ approach \verb+\numcite{marshall-lewitt}+ ... }\\ % where the author-date citation is positioned according to ISO 690 % recommendations, while the reference-by-number citation is positioned % according to American Chemical Society recommendations contains ``mark up'' for both the reference-by-number system and the author-date system, on the assumption that the \dots\ % mapping files? will just make one system visible at a time. \end{itemize} \chapter{Specialized facilities for particular disciplines} \dots \setcounter{section}{2} \section{Law} If you have to prepare documents about law, you may find that the standard \LaTeX\ facilities are inappropriate: \begin{itemize} \item although the citation system that is normally used in legal publications has a certain amount in common with the ``short form in footnotes'' system mentioned in chapter \ref{bib-refs}, some of the details are different \item legal publications often need tables of cases, statutes, etc. The structure of such tables is similar to that of an index, but they generally appear in the front matter and may require a visual design which is similar to that of the table of contents. \end{itemize} Special facilities for authors of documents about law are provided \dots\ . % whatever we call a "definition of law structure" and "mapping of a law % structure to a design" Further details are available in {\tt law-doc.tex} and {\tt law-ex.tex}, which you will find in your local ``supplementary documentation'' and ``examples'' directories respectively. \chapter{Help for old friends} \label{old-friends} \dots\ to avoid confusing structure with design \dots\ ``mapping files'' rather than ``style files'' \dots \setcounter{section}{6} \section{Bibliographic references} \dots\ \LaTeX\ 2.09's \verb+\cite+ command has been superseded by commands tailored to the three supported citation systems. (If you want to emulate version 2.09 for citations that do not require optional arguments, you can define \verb+\newcommand{\cite}{\numcite}+.) \dots\ \LaTeX\ 2.09's {\tt thebibliography} environment has been superseded by {\tt reflist}, with \verb+\bibitem+s superseded by the various \verb+\...entry+ commands. Whereas {\tt thebibliography} produced a heading and formated a list, {\tt reflist} just formats the list: you must arrange a suitable heading yourself with a command such as \verb+\section{References}+. (If you want to emulate version 2.09, \dots\ ). \end{document} From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 08:47:33 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA16702; Wed, 6 May 92 08:47:31 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 08:47 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8097; Wed, 06 May 92 07:45:51 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 15:04:34 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form stuff: examples, part 1 Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU \documentstyle[11pt,references]{report} \begin{document} % To help this file survive e-mail, it uses \sp rather than circumflex. \title{Short form citations: some examples} \author{David Rhead} \date{May 1992} \maketitle \pagenumbering{roman} \tableofcontents \clearpage \pagenumbering{arabic} \chapter{Simple example} \section{Purpose} This chapter gives a simple example. \section{First citation} Text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{simple}.} text text text text. \section{Next citation} Text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{simple}, p.\ 1.} text text text text. \clearpage \section{References} \sfentry{simple}{Form for first text reference}{Form for subsequent text references}{Form for entry in reference-list.} \chapter{ISO 690 examples} \section{Purpose} This chapter illustrates the formats shown in \begin{reflist} {\it Documentation --- bibliographic references --- content, form and structure}, ISO 690, International Organization for Standardization, 1987. \end{reflist} \section{First citation} The notion of an invisible college has been explored in the sciences.% \footnote{\firstcite{crane}.} Its absence among historians is noted by Stieg.% \footnote{\firstcite{stieg}, p.\ 556.} It may be, as Burchard% \footnote{\firstcite{burchard}, p.\ 219.} points out \dots Text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{mass-records-iso}, vol.\ 1, p.\ 126 (hereafter cited as \latercite{mass-records-iso}).} text text text text. \section{Subsequent citations} Text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{sutton}, p.\ 246.} text text text text. Text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{mass-records-iso}, p.\ 128.} text text text text. \clearpage \section{References} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{crane}{% {\sc Crane, D.}, {\it Invisible colleges}}{% {\sc Crane}}{% {\sc Crane, D.} {\it Invisible colleges.} Chicago: Univ.\ of Chicago Press, 1972.} \sfentry{stieg}{% {\sc Stieg, M. F.}, The information needs of historians}{% {\sc Stieg}}{% {\sc Steig, M. F.} The information needs of historians. {\it College and Research Libraries}, Nov.\ 1981, vol.\ 42, no.\ 6, p.\ 549--560.} \sfentry{burchard}{% {\sc Burchard, J. E.}, How humanists use a library}{% {\sc Burchard}}{% {\sc Burchard, J. E.} How humanists use a library. In {\it Intrex: report of a planning conference on information transfer experiments}, Sept.\ 3, 1965. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press, 1965, p.\ 219.} \sfentry{mass-records-iso}{% {\sc Shurtleff, B. Nathaniel}, ed., {\it Records of the governor and company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England (1826--86)}, Boston, publisher unknown, 1853--54, 5 vols.}{% Mass.\ Records}{% {\sc Shurtleff, B. Nathaniel}, ed., {\it Records of the governor and company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England (1826--86)}, Boston, publisher unknown, 1853--54, 5 vols.} % "complete reference" from Chicago, page 411. \sfentry{sutton}{moderately full sutton}{% {\sc Sutton}, {\it The analysis of free verse form}}{% {\sc Sutton, Walter.} ``The analysis of free verse form, illustrated by a reading of Whitman,'' {\it Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism} 18 (December 1959): 241--54.} \end{reflist} \clearpage \section{Alternative scheme} The notion of an invisible college has been explored in the sciences.% \footnote{\firstcite{crane-alt}.} Its absence among historians is noted by Stieg.% \footnote{\firstcite{stieg-alt}.\label{first-stieg}} It may be, as Burchard% \footnote{\firstcite{burchard-alt}.} points out \dots\ Stieg% \footnote{\latercite{stieg-alt}, ref.\ \ref{first-stieg}, p.\ 556.} has further noted \dots \sfdata{crane-alt}{% {\sc Crane, D.} {\it Invisible colleges}. Chicago: Univ.\ of Chicago Press, 1972}{% {\sc Crane}} \sfdata{stieg-alt}{% {\sc Stieg, M. F.} The information needs of historians. {\it College and Research Libraries}, Nov.\ 1981, vol.\ 42, no.\ 6, p.\ 549--560}{% {\sc Stieg}} \sfdata{burchard-alt}{% {\sc Burchard, J. E.} How humanists use a library. In {\it Intrex: report of a planning conference on information transfer experiments}, Sept.\ 3, 1965. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press, 1965}{% {\sc Burchard}} \chapter{BS 6371 examples} \section{Purpose} This chapter shows how to achieve the formats shown in \begin{reflist} {\it Citation of unpublished documents}, BS 6371, British Standards Institution, 1983. \end{reflist} \section{Examples from section 5.2} \dots\ measures which the lords were urging on the king.% \footnote{\firstcite{act-books}, fol.\ 22.\label{act-books-note}} Henry seems to have been ineffectual according to Traquair.% \footnote{\firstcite{traquair}.} With the appointment of a new receiver of rents,% \footnote{\latercite{act-books}, fol.\ 2 (see note \ref{act-books-note}).} \dots \clearpage \section{References} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{act-books}{% Exchequer, act books, 1634--1639: Edinburgh, Scottish Record Office, E.4/5}{% E.4/5}{% Exchequer, act books, 1634--1639: Edinburgh, Scottish Record Office, E.4/5.} \sfentry{traquair}{% Traquair, Earl of, letter to the Marquis of Hamilton, 28 Aug.\ [1638]: Lennoxlove (E. Lothian), Muniments of the Duke of Hamilton and Brandon, C.1, no.\ 963}{% Traquair, letter to Hamilton}{% Traquair, Earl of, letter to the Marquis of Hamilton, 28 Aug.\ [1638]: Lennoxlove (E. Lothian), Muniments of the Duke of Hamilton and Brandon, C.1, no.\ 963.} \end{reflist} \chapter{Chicago examples} \section{Purpose} This chapter shows how to achieve the formats shown in \begin{reflist} {\it Chicago Manual of Style}, 13th edition, Chicago University Press, 1982. \end{reflist} \section{Figure 15.8: list subdivided by author} % If the bibliography layout does not suit reflist, you can use % \sfdata to provide the data for footnotes. Text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{durkheim-88}, p.\ 446.} text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{durkheim-88}, p.\ 447.} text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{durkheim-30}.} text text text text.% \footnote{\latercite{durkheim-30}, p.\ 1.} \clearpage \subsection{References} \begin{center} \begin{tabular}{lp{90mm}} Durkheim, E. & \\ 1888 & Suicide et natalit\'{e}: Etude de statistique morale. {\it Revue philosophique de la France et de l'\'{e}tranger\/} 26:446--63. \\ 1930 & {\it Le suicide: Etude de sociologie}. 2d ed. Paris: Librairie Felix Alcon. \end{tabular} \end{center} \sfdata{durkheim-88}{% Durkheim. Suicide et natalit\'{e}: Etude de statistique morale}{% Durkheim. Suicide et natalit\'{e}} \sfdata{durkheim-30}{% Durkheim. Le suicide: Etude de sociologie}{% Durkheim. Le suicide} From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 6 08:48:30 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA16714; Wed, 6 May 92 08:48:23 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 6 May 1992 08:47 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 8151; Wed, 06 May 92 07:46:53 PDT Date: Wed, 6 May 92 15:05:27 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Short form stuff: examples, part 2 Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU \clearpage \section{Figure 15.14: a bibliographic essay} % \firstcite works within ordinary sentences The most thorough bibliography of American religion is \firstcite{burr}. More recent \dots \sfdata{burr}{% Nelson R. Burr, {\it A Critical Bibliography of Religion in America}, 2 vols.\ (Princeton, 1961)} {Burr. {\it Religion}} \clearpage \section{Figure 15.15: a subdivided reference-list} % reflist works within a subdivided reference-list. % Annotation can follow text supplied by \sfentry. \subsection{Manuscript sources} \subsubsection{Private papers} \paragraph{France} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{larras}{% }{% }{% Larras MSS. Archives. Minist\`{e}re de la Guerre. Section d'Afrique, Paris.} The papers of General Larras, who served with the French military mission in Morocco from 1898 to 1905. He was responsible for preparing many of the maps of Morocco later utilized during the first stages of pacification. The papers relate principally to the period of his service in Morocco. \sfentry{mangin}{% }{% }{% Mangin MSS. Archives Nationales, Paris.} The papers and reports of General Charles Mangin, the hero of the battle of Sidi Bou Outhman and deliverer of Marrakech. In its essentials, it duplicates the holdings of the Ministi\`{e}re de la Guerre, Section d'Afrique, although there are additional papers. Only a portion deals with Mangin's Moroccan career. \dots \end{reflist} \paragraph{Great Britain} \dots \subsubsection{Official Papers} \paragraph{France} \dots \clearpage \section{Some examples from chapter 17} \subsection{First citations} Text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{stafford}, 90.} text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{roche}, 204--6.} text text text text. \subsection{Subsequent citations} Text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{roche}, 175.} text text text text. \clearpage \subsection{Bibliography} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{stafford}{% David Stafford, {\it Britain and European Resistance, 1940--1945} (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1980)}{% Stafford. {\it European Resistance}}{% Stafford, David. {\it Britain and European Resistance, 1940--1945}. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1980.} \sfentry{roche}{% John P. Roche, {\it The Quest for the Dream: The Development of Civil Rights and Human Relations in Modern America} (New York: Macmillan Co., 1963)}{% Roche, {\it Quest for the Dream}}{% Roche, John P. {\it The Quest for the Dream: The Development of Civil Rights and Human Relations in Modern America.} New York: Macmillan Co., 1963.} \end{reflist} \chapter{Butcher's examples} \section{Purpose} This chapter illustrates the formats shown in chapter 10 of \begin{reflist} Judith Butcher, {\it Copy-editing}, 2nd edition, Cambridge University Press, 1981. \end{reflist} \section{First citation} Text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{hazel}, vol.\ 3, p.\ 2} text text text text.% \footnote{\firstcite{carr}, 82--9} \section{Subsequent citations} Text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{hazel}, vol.\ 4, p.\ 102} text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{carr}, p.\ 82} \clearpage \section{References} \begin{reflist} % If desired, reflist can contain a mixture of entries supplied as % "paragraphs" and entries supplied via \sfentry. \sfentry{carr}{% J. L. Carr, `Uncertainty and monetary theory', {\it Economics}, {\bf 2} (1956)}{% Carr, `Uncertainty and monetary theory'}{% Carr, J. L. `Uncertainty and monetary theory', {\it Economics}, {\bf 2} (1956), 82--9} Chomsky, Noam. `Explanatory models in linguistics' in J. A. Fodor and J. J. Katz (eds.), {\it The structure of language}, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, Prentice-Hall, 1964, pp.\ 50--118 \sfentry{hazel}{% J. A. Hazel, {\it The growth of the cotton trade in Lancashire}, 2nd edn (4 vols., London, Textile Press, 1956--7)}{% Hazel, {\it Cotton trade}}{% Hazel, J. A. {\it The growth of the cotton trade in Lancashire}, 2nd edn, 4 vols., London, Textile Press, 1956--7} \end{reflist} \chapter{MLA examples} \section{Purpose} This chapter illustrates the formats shown in chapter 5 of \begin{reflist} Joseph Gibaldi and Walter S. Achert (editors), {\it MLA handbook for writers of research papers}, 3rd edition, Modern Language Association of America, 1988. \end{reflist} In fact, the {\it Handbook} seems concerned with the production of {\em typewritten} documents rather than {\em typeset} documents. Perhaps the {\it Handbook} does not show the conventions that the MLA would advocate for typeset documents? \section{Citations} Ancient writers attributed the invention of the monochord to Pythagoras in the sixth century BC (\firstcite{marcuse} 197). Later, when the characters are confronted by tragedy, they take on greater depth (\firstcite{joy-ride}). \clearpage \section{Works cited} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{marcuse}{% Marcuse}{% Marcuse}{% Marcuse, Sybil. {\it A survey of musical instruments}. New York: Harper, 1975} \sfentry{joy-ride}{% ``Joy Ride''}{% ``Joy Ride''}{% ``The Joy Ride.'' Writ.\ Alfred Shaugnessy. {\it Upstairs, Downstairs.} Created by Eileen Atkins and Jean Marsh. Dir.\ Bill Bain. Prod.\ John Hawksworth. Masterpiece Theatre. Introd.\ Alistair Cooke. PBS. WGBH, Boston. 6 Feb.\ 1977.} \end{reflist} \chapter{MHRA examples} \section{Purpose} This chapter illustrates the formats shown in chapter 10 of \begin{reflist} {\it MHRA style book}, 4th edition, Modern Humanities Research Association, 1991. \end{reflist} \section{First citations} Text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{caligula-d-iii}, fol.\ 15.} text text text text% \footnote{\firstcite{chadwick}, I, p.\ xiii.} text text text text.% \footnote{\firstcite{cook} (pp.\ 118--19).} \section{Next citation} Text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{caligula-d-iii}, fols 17$\sp v$--19$\sp r$.} text text text text% \footnote{\latercite{chadwick}, III, 72.} text text text text.% \footnote{\latercite{cook}.} \clearpage \section{Works cited} \begin{reflist} \sfentry{caligula-d-iii}{% British Library, Cotton MSS, Caligula D III}{% BL, Cotton MSS, Caligula D III}{% British Library, Cotton MSS, Caligula D III} \sfentry{chadwick}{% H. Munro Chadwick and N. Kershaw Chadwick, {\it The Growth of Literature}, 3 vols (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1932--40; repr.\ 1986)}{% Chadwick and Chadwick}{% Chadwick, H. Munro, and N. Kershaw Chadwick, {\it The Growth of Literature}, 3 vols (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1932--40; repr.\ 1986)} \sfentry{cook}{% Robert F. Cook, `{\it Baudouin de Sebourc\/}: un po\`{e}me \'{e}dificant?', {\it Olifant}, 14 (1989), 115--35}{% Cook}{% Cook, Robert F., `{\it Baudouin de Sebourc\/}: un po\`{e}me \'{e}dificant?', {\it Olifant}, 14 (1989), 115--35} \end{reflist} \end{document} From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Fri May 8 12:29:57 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA15341; Fri, 8 May 92 12:29:55 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Fri, 8 May 1992 12:28 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4406; Fri, 08 May 92 11:26:41 PDT Date: Fri, 8 May 92 20:25:35 CET From: J%org Knappen Subject: Short form citations Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <5356CAE2A0039A66@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Many thanks to David Rhead for bringing up the examples of citations and refencing and for studiing the standards. I really enjoyed the examples. However, I disagree with the proposed user interface. I want something more automatic and flexible. ..\citationstyle{...}... defines the visual layout of citations, i.e. the \citationmark -- ^{Number} or [Number] or [Aut99] or (Author 1999) or... the shortform, which appears as footnote or endnote... the longform, which appears in the list of references. \citationstyle is analogous to the now existing \bibliographystyle. I don't want to say \firstcite and \latercite, LaTeX should automatically know, if a citation is the first or a following and handle it appropriately. (I think of revisions of a document.) Citations should not mix with footnotes or endnotes -- they should use their own counter and style. I have examples of books in which citations appear as footnotes and are numbered, but there are also real footnotes (containing e.g. translator's remarks), which are marked by footnotesymbols. I like the general structure of \sfentry with its four arguments. I did not think about implemantion of such a scheme...including thingies like ``see ref.[n]'' etc. However, I hope you find these thoughts constructive. Yours, J"org Knappen. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 11 08:06:00 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA04864; Mon, 11 May 92 08:05:58 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 11 May 1992 08:05 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 0469; Mon, 11 May 92 07:03:54 PDT Date: Mon, 11 May 92 15:42:38 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: mail problems Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <8A029C55E003E480@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > When I mentioned that we probably had made a mistake by not changing > the list name ... this seems to have taken about one month to find its way from Mainz to Heidelberg and then to you. It's unfortunate that the mail services are in such a bad shape but I fear there is nothing we can do about it. cheers Frank Mittelbach From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 11 08:07:35 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA04868; Mon, 11 May 92 08:07:32 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 11 May 1992 08:07 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 0539; Mon, 11 May 92 07:05:40 PDT Date: Mon, 11 May 92 16:03:57 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: short citation forms Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <8A453DFBB003F914@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > Many thanks to David Rhead for bringing up the examples of citations and > refencing and for studiing the standards. I really enjoyed the examples. Second. > However, I disagree with the proposed user interface. I want something more > automatic and flexible. > .\citationstyle{...}... defines the visual layout of citations, i.e. > the \citationmark -- ^{Number} or [Number] or [Aut99] or (Author 1999) or... > the shortform, which appears as footnote or endnote... > the longform, which appears in the list of references. > \citationstyle is analogous to the now existing \bibliographystyle. If I understand David correctly he proposes different commands because one may want to use several forms within one document. Also, in my belief some forms can't be switched just by changing a style variable because they involve different writing styles. However, it would be interesting to get a more detailed proposal on a more flexible and automatic interface. How about writing something up including its proposed actions on the user commands for citation? > I don't want to say \firstcite and \latercite, LaTeX should automatically > know, if a citation is the first or a following and handle it appropriately. > (I think of revisions of a document.) I had a similar objection too, but: I'm not sure if such writing styles always put the \firstcite first. This is something where I would invite comment from people more experienced with such styles. If we can assume that the ``long form'' of the citation always comes first and all following citations are ``short'' then an automatic detection of the first citation should be no major problem. Comments please. > Citations should not mix with footnotes or endnotes -- they should use > their own counter and style. I have examples of books in which citations > appear as footnotes and are numbered, but there are also real footnotes > (containing e.g. translator's remarks), which are marked by footnotesymbols. Agreed, but again I would invite a more detailed proposal for an appropriate syntax. I don't think that an unstructured ``reflist'' environment is a good idea since it would be seldom result in consistent layout. I prefer at least a starting tag. cheers Frank Mittelbach From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Mon May 11 09:03:03 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA05163; Mon, 11 May 92 09:03:00 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Mon, 11 May 1992 09:02 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2765; Mon, 11 May 92 08:00:40 PDT Date: Mon, 11 May 92 10:33:15 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: short citation forms In-Reply-To: Frank Mittelbach's message of Mon, 11 May 92 16:03:57 CET <9205111406.AA17025@relay1.UU.NET> Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <91F759847004213C@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Frank writes: > > I don't want to say \firstcite and \latercite, LaTeX should automatically > > know, if a citation is the first or a following and handle it appropriately. > > (I think of revisions of a document.) > I had a similar objection too, but: I'm not sure if such writing > styles always put the \firstcite first. I agree with whomever Frank is replying to; however, it is true that the user might need a long or short form under different circumstances. I suggest the \citation (or whatever it turns out to be) command take an optional argument; either [l] to force a long form and [s] to force a short form. (If it does end up with different command names, \firstcite and \latercite should be replaced by \longcite and \shortcite, on the say-what-you-mean principle.) ^.-.^ Mark Purtill, IDA/CCR-P, Thanet Road, Princeton NJ 08540; (609)924-4600. ((")) Email: purtill%idacrd@princeton.edu; uunet!idacrd!purtill. (609)497-0526. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue May 12 04:29:08 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA12947; Tue, 12 May 92 04:29:06 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 12 May 1992 04:28 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 0949; Tue, 12 May 92 03:28:07 PDT Date: Tue, 12 May 92 08:49:41 GMT From: spqr@MINSTER.YORK.AC.UK Subject: Re: short citation forms Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <34F2D46160002558@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > I had a similar objection too, but: I'm not sure if such writing > styles always put the \firstcite first. This is something where I > would invite comment from people more experienced with such styles. If > we can assume that the ``long form'' of the citation always comes > first and all following citations are ``short'' then an automatic > detection of the first citation should be no major problem. its not easy to think of an example, but I would be unhappy if the user could *not* do an apparently ridiculous forward reference, as in "see LSJ (details in footnote on page 44)". i dont think I'd ever do it myself... > > I don't think that an unstructured ``reflist'' environment is a good > idea since it would be seldom result in consistent layout. I prefer at > least a starting tag. > this was the most obvious thing that struck me in Rhead's example. I hated the \begin{reflist} and then a set of blank-line separated entries. please, lets keep the traditional \item! an entry could *easily* have a second paragraph (abstract, for instance). slightly less philosophical, but how does one economically implement footnote citations? all the implementations that come to mind (I was trying it last night) involve stuffing the full citation into a macro (which is probably picked up from an external file on second passes etc), which is potentially disastrous for TeX memory. if the expansion of \b@knuth:1987 is a three paragraph essay, we soon have problems. does anyone have any suggestions for managing this sort of thing? the possiblity of one external file for each reference raises its ugly head, or opening and searching a whole file for each citation... sebastian From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue May 12 05:20:25 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA14790; Tue, 12 May 92 05:20:23 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 12 May 1992 05:20 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 1473; Tue, 12 May 92 04:16:23 PDT Date: Tue, 12 May 92 13:52:35 +0300 From: Mustafa Akgul Subject: Re: short citation forms Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <3C1A050490002665@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Two points. One concerns the listserv. 1. I got two copies of sebestain's message. 2. For footnote ciations, that is including long paragraphs with footnotes, psfig.sty gives me the following idea. We write some info to aux file, as in the short text for footnote, and write long text to a file, whose name is linked somehow to footnote. Only advantage of doing this, is that we do not need to search the new file for info; hence no burdon on the TeX memory. regards Mustafa Akgul From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue May 12 05:39:00 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA14842; Tue, 12 May 92 05:38:59 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 12 May 1992 05:38 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 1782; Tue, 12 May 92 04:37:47 PDT Date: Tue, 12 May 92 12:31:08 BST From: CHAA006@VAX.RHBNC.AC.UK Subject: Re: short citation forms Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <3EB5BDC14000272C@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU >>> this was the most obvious thing that struck me in Rhead's example. I >>> hated the \begin{reflist} and then a set of blank-line separated >>> entries. please, lets keep the traditional \item! an entry could >>> *easily* have a second paragraph (abstract, for instance). Let me argue against this one; in maany recent documents, I have implemented \Begin {list} ... \End {list}, with the implicit semantics that one paragraph = one item. Much more elegant markup (i.e. tacit markup rather than explicit), and, when, just occasionally, I needed items that spanned paragraphs, I implemented \Begin {list} \options = {\spansparagraphs} ... \End {list}, which then required the use of \Item. ** Phil. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue May 12 06:50:30 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA15066; Tue, 12 May 92 06:50:29 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 12 May 1992 06:50 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 4055; Tue, 12 May 92 05:48:51 PDT Date: Tue, 12 May 92 11:26:12 GMT From: spqr@MINSTER.YORK.AC.UK Subject: Re: short citation forms Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <48B2160A7000295D@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > Let me argue against this one; in maany recent documents, I have > implemented > \Begin {list} ... \End {list}, with the implicit semantics that one > paragraph = one item. Much more elegant markup (i.e. tacit markup > rather than explicit), and, when, just occasionally, I needed items > that spanned paragraphs, I implemented \Begin {list} \options = > {\spansparagraphs} ... \End {list}, which then required the use of > \Item. you'd be at home in the SGML lists, Phil. i think the overriding thing *is* to use explicit markup, so that items start with \item, and let people who are clever enough redefine \par to start a new item. "\options={spansparagraphs}" indeed!! s From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Fri May 15 01:08:39 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA08439; Fri, 15 May 92 01:08:38 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Fri, 15 May 1992 01:08 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 6762; Fri, 15 May 92 00:07:39 PDT Date: Fri, 15 May 92 09:05:49 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: basic structures and customization Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: <747175C04000D665@CC.UTAH.EDU> X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU Phil said: > > Let me argue against this one; in maany recent documents, I have > > implemented > > \Begin {list} ... \End {list}, with the implicit semantics that one > > paragraph = one item. Much more elegant markup (i.e. tacit markup > > rather than explicit), and, when, just occasionally, I needed items > > that spanned paragraphs, I implemented \Begin {list} \options = > > {\spansparagraphs} ... \End {list}, which then required the use of > > \Item. and Sebastian answered: > you'd be at home in the SGML lists, Phil. i think the overriding thing > *is* to use explicit markup, so that items start with \item, and let > people who are clever enough redefine \par to start a new item. > "\options={spansparagraphs}" indeed!! >From my point of view the basic structures in LaTeX3 have to be as verbose and complete as possible to allow the best possible control over the document appearance and to allow unambigous input. This means that underlying we will have as much tagging as possible without burdening the user too much. In theory I would prefer to get rid of even implicit word bounderies, sentences etc, but okay, I also like to use the system. Now this is the concept. On top of it we then implement help for the user to tag his/her document in a more flexible manner. For example, the current kernel prototype on this machine supports implicit closing of environments if they can be determined, e.g., one could write \begin{table} \caption{foo} \begin{center} \begin{tabular}{ll} ... \end{table} And `table' will know that it has to close tabular and then center. (In fact this is meant more as a error recovery strategy and you will get warnings, but you see the point). More important to the discussion above, I'm currently experimenting with a general short-reference feature which is somehow a generalization of things like "a "s `e "| found in styles like german.sty or french.sty ... This will become a general scheme where it is possible for the user to define convenient abbreviations for local or global use, e.g., \begin{prog} a := b \end{prog} may get translated into $a \gets b$ etc. Shortening coding by means of making implicit tokens like \everypar and \par ``special'' will probably also be available in a *controlled* way, at least to the style and application programmer. So there will be nothing lost by forcing \bibitem or even \begin{bibentry}... arround as the basic default. To make another example, many people currently complain that \index in LaTeX is not good enough. This isn't true, the only thing that is missing is a simple an reliable way of customizing it in a suitable way. With a shortref feature one could make |foo| an index entry and ||bar|| a silent one or whatever is sensible for the current document. Of course, in addition to the primitive \index function, latex3 also needs a style option (or perhaps more than one) that provides more complicated indexing schemes. To summarize: LaTeX3 basic structures should all be as completely tagged as possible and general purpose schemes like ``shortrefs'', ``empty-line-handling'' etc. then provide the necessary customization to make life durable for the user. From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Tue May 19 06:36:30 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA08843; Tue, 19 May 92 06:36:28 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Tue, 19 May 1992 06:36 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 7023; Tue, 19 May 92 05:35:18 PDT Date: Tue, 19 May 92 13:27:17 +0100 From: Dominik Wujastyk Subject: verbatim in doc Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU I'm using newdoc.sty, and I've set \MakeShortVerb{"} so that I can just say "\blahblah" to get my verbatim stuff. It's very convenient. But I run into trouble in moving arguments: section titles and footnotes, and \protect doesn't seem to help. Furthermore, the workaround using \bslash doesn't work in footnotes: you get ``. I could probably answer this next one myself, especially when doc.doc comes out. But why is it that even when I say \DisableCrossrefs, if I say \PageIndex I still get a filename.idx file generated. Am I missing something? Actually, couldn't we do without \Enable/\DisableCrossrefs, and just have index generation turned on and off by \Pageindex/\Codelineindex? I have a sneaky feeling I'm missing something in all this. (My marbles?) Dominik From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 20 13:53:08 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA21279; Wed, 20 May 92 13:53:06 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 20 May 1992 13:04 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 3638; Wed, 20 May 92 03:25:12 PDT Date: Wed, 20 May 92 11:21:54 BST From: David_Rhead@VME.NOTT.AC.UK Subject: Citations in footnotes: law publications Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU You may remember that my "first write the documentation" effort on short-form citations envisaged some supplementary facilities for lawyers. I have some experimental facilities ready now but, since I'm not suggesting that law-specific facilties should be part of the core LaTeX3, I won't distribute them generally. (If any individual who is particularly interested in law e-mails me, I'll let them have a copy of what I've done. Such people may also wish to read "the blue book", i.e. "A uniform system of citation" published by the Harvard Law Review Association.) There are some "matters arising": * The structure seems different from that in other disciplines, which seems yet-another-obstacle to automatic conversion from one citation scheme to another (e.g., to hoping that one .sty file could format a .tex file that uses \cite for author-date, while another .sty file would format the same .tex file for short-form, and another would do it as required by lawyers). * You may remember that, a while back, I suggested that support for multiple indexes is desirable, e.g., via variations like \index[author]{...} and \index[subject]{...}. Well, lawyers have things like "table of cases", "table of statutes", "table of conventions", which actually seem like "yet more indexes". E.g., the table of cases is an index of all pages that contain a reference to each case. (At least, UK law-book authors do. I don't know about other places, but I'm assuming that non-UK lawyers do the same.) So this would be another situation in which support for multiple indexes is desirable. We might, for example, want to allow people to go \index[cases]{...} \index[statutes]{...}. * The books I've seen put such tables in the front matter with a layout like case-specification case-specification case-specification case- specification ...........................................page, page, page, page, page possibly subdivided into sections, so something to do such layout would be nice (assuming that something like makeindex could deliver case-specification/page-list pairs ready to put in that layout). * The blue book advocates reference back to previous footnotes ("supra") so, in the law analogue of \firstcite{key}, I put a \label{\thechapter-key} so that a subsequent footnote reference to the same source could go "see note \ref{\thechapter-key}". This sort of thing could be done for general short-form things (which could help with J"urg Knappen's "wish" for support for things like "see ref. [n]", if he means "see note [n]".). [I'm assuming here that footnotes start from 1 in each chapter. A book that had a different convention would require a different \label.] * The blue book seems to support references to forthcoming ("infra") footnotes too, which may be the sort of thing that Sebastian thought might be required. David Rhead From LATEX-L@DHDURZ1.Berkeley.EDU Wed May 20 15:37:38 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from cc.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA22043; Wed, 20 May 92 15:37:35 MDT Received: from cmsa.Berkeley.EDU (MAILER@UCBCMSA) by CC.UTAH.EDU with PMDF#10043; Wed, 20 May 1992 15:28 MST Received: by UCBCMSA (Mailer R2.08 R208004) id 2875; Wed, 20 May 92 09:55:06 PDT Date: Wed, 20 May 92 18:52:54 CET From: Frank Mittelbach Subject: Re: doc.sty + small projects! Sender: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project To: "Nelson H.F. Beebe" Reply-To: Mailing list for the LaTeX3 project Message-Id: X-Envelope-To: beebe@MATH.UTAH.EDU > I'm using newdoc.sty, and I've set \MakeShortVerb{"} so that > I can just say "\blahblah" to get my verbatim stuff. It's > very convenient. This is by the way an old suggestion by the very person who wrote this :-) By the way, one should say \MakeShortVerb{\"} not just {"} this may look a bit funny but that's the way it is. The other form does work most of the time but not always and may be rejected by the next release. > But I run into trouble in moving arguments: section titles > and footnotes, and \protect doesn't seem to help. \verb never works inside an argument and it will also not work if masquerading as "...". This is a \TeX limitation and will be probably even be partly there in ltx3. > Furthermore, the workaround using \bslash doesn't work in > footnotes: you get ``. That's not tru \bslash only produces a `\' in the current font, if the font doesn't provide one in that position bad luck. One needs to say something like {\tt\bslash foo}, also {\tt\string\foo} will work. > I could probably answer this next one myself, especially when > doc.doc comes out. But why is it that even when I say > \DisableCrossrefs, if I say \PageIndex I still get a filename.idx > file generated. Am I missing something? Actually, couldn't we > do without \Enable/\DisableCrossrefs, and just have index > generation turned on and off by \Pageindex/\Codelineindex? \Enable/\DisableCrossrefs only decide whether or not crossreference index entries are generated. A master index coming from \begin{macro} and \Describe... is always produces when one uses \Pageindex/\Codelineindex. Does this help? > I have a sneaky feeling I'm missing something in all this. > (My marbles?) Maybe we don't want to get into this. Perhaps you missed that this isn't a problem solving list for latex209. But I will forget about this for the moment remembering the heated discussion last time. So far this was my ``hinted answer'' to Dominik but I thought that this information is of some interest to others too, so it went back to the list. I'm please to announce that doc.doc and docstrip.doc due to the efforts of David Love and Johannes Braams are about ready for distribution. This will then hopefully answers any remaining questions. The rest of this mail isn't any longer connected to Dominiks questions directly and is *not* meant to insult anybody. But I would like to remind everybody that asking questions on this list takes off from my already limited time. So please try also think that your contributions are necessary to make ltx3 happen. I have occasionly send out requests on this list for volunteer work but so far the reaction is very low. I know that is much easier to write a fast typed in answer to some topic then to spend say half a man/day on some specific task. The first is just done while ``anyway reading mail'' while the latter needs some ``additional free time''. In fact the overall time is perhaps about the same but one doesn't get this feeling. But we need our ``additional work'' so I would like to repeat some of the requests for work where we still look for people helping. - validating LaTeX 2.09: writing test files testing bugs that are supposed to be solved, testing interaction with environments and styles ... If anybody is interested I'm happy to provide him/her with the tools and the explicit procedures, they have also been outlined already on this list. Man/Time: between 1/2 to 4 days - .sty metacomments for smart editors: this was a request by David Love which I find important for editing support. Anybody interested in this should directly contact him under . As far as I know he got no response. Man/Time: probably 1/2 day over a longer period of time - playing around with \emergencystretch and writing up a summary: this wasn't requested before on this list, only in a side remark of some TUB article by me but I think this is an important area where the TeX community doesn't have enough experience so far, e.g. what are good values in what situations, why? what happens if.. and so on. I think this would also make a good article for TUB if one likes to give it the finishing touch afterwards. Man/Time: \approx 2 days plus 2 days for publication - making proposals for syntax: for example a counter proposal for the well thought out proposal for citation handling by David Rhead. It is certainly not necessary to be that elaborate with examples etc, but instead of saying I like this and I don't like that write up a short article with a real syntax proposal. Beside biblio stuff we asked for a proposal on index handling and support. Man/Time: 1/4 - 1 day for each proposal - math font handling: some time last year we started a discussion on how to handle math fonts under an enhanced release of nfss for ltx3. There have been a long and heated discussion that finally drifted off into areas that are far beyond the scope of the LaTeX3 project but the actual questions we've raised have never been answered. The only contribution that came close was the detailed suggestion and experience report by Sebastian Rahtz about the alpha release for an extended text font handling which has be send around by me. I most certainly hade hoped to get more reports on this, and still hope. Testing the test implementation and writing up detailed comments: Man/Time: 1/2 - 3/4 day Thinking about a proper math font handling taking into account the send around papers about this: Man/Time: 2 -4 days There have been more if you reread the list messages and for all I would welcome help still. This takes time, I know. But it is time that is ``planable'' I don't think my guesses above are far off. So I hope I still hope ... cheers Frank From beebe Fri May 22 20:41:06 1992 Flags: 000000000000 Return-Path: Received: from solitude.math.utah.edu by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA13794; Fri, 22 May 92 20:40:56 MDT Date: Fri, 22 May 92 20:40:56 MDT From: Nelson H. F. Beebe To: latex-l@dhdurz1.bitnet Cc: beebe, rex@aussie.com X-Us-Mail: "Center for Scientific Computing, South Physics, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112" X-Telephone: (801) 581-5254 X-Fax: (801) 581-4148 Subject: LaTeX twocolumn mode and \firstmark: a problem and its solution Message-Id: I've spent the day trying to convert a glossary file from one-column mode to two-column mode. I want to have running headers that show the first and last word on each page, like a dictionary does. In one-column mode, I can easily do this. In two-column mode, \firstmark always is set to the first word in the {\em second} column, rather than the first, and \topmark is set to the last word in the {\em first} column. After many hours of failure, while composing a letter to this list about the problem, the exercise of semiliterate programming provided the solution. Because that solution needs a (simple, and useful) change to LaTeX's output routine, it seems worthwhile to request that LaTeX 3.0 provide the facility I need, unless the problem has already been seen and solved in another way. The experiments suggested that \box255 is created twice per page, but the LaTeX output routine only invokes the page header and footer macros on the second column. This in turn suggested that a trap in the LaTeX output routine might be able to save \firstmark and \topmark in the first column. That was the vital clue. A study of the output routine code in latex.tex revealed that \@outputdblcol was the place where the trap was needed, and when I installed it, my problem was solved. A more general solution would be to have \@outputdblcol call a user-defined hook; for this example, I've just written the hook code inline. Leslie Lamport has previously remarked that the LaTeX output routine is an exceedingly delicate piece of code, so I'd like to ask this list if they see a flaw in my solution. The perturbation on the output routine seems quite innocuous, but perhaps I'm overlooking something that sharper eyes will spot. To illustate, the following file with an extract of the UNIX spelling dictionary is provided, together with a preamble of necessary macros. % -*-latex-*- % Document name: /usr/local/plot79/tex/foo3.ltx % Creator: Nelson H. F. Beebe [beebe@solitude.math.utah.edu] % Creation Date: Fri May 22 19:23:19 1992 \documentstyle[twocolumn]{article} \makeatletter \let\firstcolumnfirstmark=\relax %% Modify function from LaTeX output routine to preserve %% \firstmark in first column in \firstcolumnfirstmark \def\@outputdblcol{\if@firstcolumn \global\@firstcolumnfalse \global\setbox\@leftcolumn\box\@outputbox \xdef\firstcolumnfirstmark{\firstmark}% [22-May-1992] NEW CODE HERE \message{[FIRST = \firstmark; TOP = \topmark; BOT = \botmark]}% \else \global\@firstcolumntrue \setbox\@outputbox\vbox{\hbox to\textwidth{\hbox to\columnwidth {\box\@leftcolumn \hss}\hfil \vrule width\columnseprule\hfil \hbox to\columnwidth{\box\@outputbox \hss}}}\@combinedblfloats \@outputpage \begingroup \@dblfloatplacement \@startdblcolumn \@whilesw\if@fcolmade \fi{\@outputpage\@startdblcolumn}\endgroup \fi} \newcommand{\wordentry}[1]% {% \subsection*{#1}% \ifx\firstcolumnfirstmark\relax% Capture and save very first mark; \xdef\firstcolumnfirstmark{#1}% TeX doesn't set it on first page \fi \mark{#1}% \index{#1}% } \renewcommand{\@evenhead}{% \hss \underline{\makebox[\textwidth]{{\large\firstcolumnfirstmark} \hfill {\large\botmark}}}% \hss } \renewcommand{\@oddhead}{% \hss \underline{\makebox[\textwidth]{{\large\firstcolumnfirstmark}\hfill{\large\botmark}}}% \hss } \renewcommand{\@evenfoot}{\hfill \rm \thepage \hfill} \renewcommand{\@oddfoot}{\hfill \rm \thepage \hfill} \makeatother \begin{document} Title page goes here \cleardoublepage \wordentry{AAA} \wordentry{AAAS} \wordentry{Aarhus} \wordentry{Aaron} \wordentry{AAU} \wordentry{ABA} \wordentry{Ababa} \wordentry{aback} \wordentry{abacus} \wordentry{abalone} \wordentry{abandon} \wordentry{abase} \wordentry{abash} \wordentry{abate} \wordentry{abater} \wordentry{abbas} \wordentry{abbe} \wordentry{abbey} \wordentry{abbot} \wordentry{Abbott} \wordentry{abbreviate} \wordentry{abc} \wordentry{abdicate} \wordentry{abdomen} \wordentry{abdominal} \wordentry{abduct} \wordentry{Abe} \wordentry{abed} \wordentry{Abel} \wordentry{Abelian} \wordentry{Abelson} \wordentry{Aberdeen} \wordentry{Abernathy} \wordentry{aberrant} \wordentry{aberrate} \wordentry{abet} \wordentry{abetted} \wordentry{abetting} \wordentry{abeyance} \wordentry{abeyant} \wordentry{abhorred} \wordentry{abhorrent} \wordentry{abide} \wordentry{Abidjan} \wordentry{Abigail} \wordentry{abject} \wordentry{ablate} \wordentry{ablaze} \wordentry{able} \wordentry{ablution} \wordentry{Abner} \wordentry{abnormal} \wordentry{Abo} \wordentry{aboard} \wordentry{abode} \wordentry{abolish} \wordentry{abolition} \wordentry{abominable} \wordentry{abominate} \wordentry{aboriginal} \wordentry{aborigine} \wordentry{aborning} \wordentry{abort} \wordentry{abound} \wordentry{about} \wordentry{above} \wordentry{aboveboard} \wordentry{aboveground} \wordentry{abovementioned} \wordentry{abrade} \wordentry{Abraham} \wordentry{Abram} \wordentry{Abramson} \wordentry{abrasion} \wordentry{abrasive} \wordentry{abreact} \wordentry{abreast} \wordentry{abridge} \wordentry{abridgment} \wordentry{abroad} \wordentry{abrogate} \wordentry{abrupt} \wordentry{abscess} \wordentry{abscissa} \wordentry{abscissae} \wordentry{absence} \wordentry{absent} \wordentry{absentee} \wordentry{absenteeism} \wordentry{absentia} \wordentry{absentminded} \wordentry{absinthe} \wordentry{absolute} \wordentry{absolution} \wordentry{absolve} \wordentry{absorb} \wordentry{absorbent} \wordentry{absorption} \wordentry{absorptive} \wordentry{abstain} \wordentry{abstention} \wordentry{abstinent} \wordentry{abstract} \wordentry{abstracter} \wordentry{abstractor} \wordentry{abstruse} \wordentry{absurd} \wordentry{abuilding} \wordentry{abundant} \wordentry{abusable} \wordentry{abuse} \wordentry{abusive} \wordentry{abut} \wordentry{abutted} \wordentry{abutting} \wordentry{abysmal} \wordentry{abyss} \wordentry{Abyssinia} \wordentry{AC} \wordentry{academe} \wordentry{academia} \wordentry{academic} \wordentry{academician} \wordentry{academy} \wordentry{Acadia} \wordentry{acanthus} \wordentry{Acapulco} \wordentry{accede} \wordentry{accelerate} \wordentry{accelerometer} \wordentry{accent} \wordentry{accentual} \wordentry{accentuate} \wordentry{accept} \wordentry{acceptant} \wordentry{acceptor} \wordentry{access} \wordentry{accessible} \wordentry{accession} \wordentry{accessory} \wordentry{accident} \wordentry{accidental} \wordentry{accipiter} \wordentry{acclaim} \wordentry{acclamation} \wordentry{acclimate} \wordentry{accolade} \wordentry{accommodate} \wordentry{accompaniment} \wordentry{accompanist} \wordentry{accompany} \wordentry{accomplice} \wordentry{accomplish} \wordentry{accord} \wordentry{accordant} \wordentry{accordion} \wordentry{accost} \wordentry{account} \wordentry{accountant} \wordentry{Accra} \wordentry{accredit} \wordentry{accreditate} \wordentry{accreditation} \wordentry{accretion} \wordentry{accrual} \wordentry{accrue} \wordentry{acculturate} \end{document} ======================================================================== Nelson H.F. Beebe Center for Scientific Computing Department of Mathematics 220 South Physics Building University of Utah Salt Lake City, UT 84112 USA Tel: (801) 581-5254 FAX: (801) 581-4148 Internet: beebe@math.utah.edu ======================================================================== From schoepf@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE Sun May 24 12:21:20 1992 Flags: 000000000001 Return-Path: Received: from MATH.AMS.COM by math.utah.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1-utah-csc-server) id AA28074; Sun, 24 May 92 12:21:16 MDT Received: from serv02.ZIB-Berlin.DE by MATH.AMS.COM (PMDF #041B2) id <01GKE503WP00E2Y0WB@MATH.AMS.COM>; Sun, 24 May 1992 14:10:21 EST Received: from dagobert.ZIB-Berlin.DE by serv02.ZIB-Berlin.DE (4.0/SMI-4.0-serv02/7.11.91 ) id AA06427; Sun, 24 May 92 20:05:43 +0200 Received: from quattro.ZIB-Berlin.DE by dagobert.ZIB-Berlin.DE (4.1/SMI-4.0/31.1.91) id AA04211; Sun, 24 May 92 20:05:39 +0200 Received: by quattro.ZIB-Berlin.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18198; Sun, 24 May 92 20:05:11 +0200 Date: 24 May 1992 20:05:39 +0200 From: schoepf@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE (Rainer Schoepf) Subject: \input vs. \openin To: TeX-Implementors@MATH.AMS.COM Cc: Mittelbach@mzdmza.zdv.uni-mainz.de, CA_ROWLEY@VAX.ACS.OPEN.AC.UK, J.L.Braams@research.ptt.nl Reply-To: Schoepf@sc.ZIB-Berlin.DE Message-Id: <9205241805.AA04211@sc.zib-berlin.dbp.de> Organization: Konrad-Zuse-Zentrum fuer Informationstechnik Berlin Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A while ago, this list saw a discussion of whether \openin should look for the file in question only in the current directory, or use some sort of search path, like \input does. The discussion ended after Barbara Beeton sent around the following [ comment by DEK: My current opinion is: If the operating system allows users to define a ``custom'' search path at run time, then both \input and \openin should be able to use it, although I would hope that people don't use \openin for `system' files but only for files they tend to control themselves. If the operating system is like WAITS (on which I developed TeX), where there's no decent way to provide a clue to TeX at runtime about a nonstandard search path, then I would provide access to the main system macro files (like plain.tex and webmac.tex) only for \input not \openin; I would use the same strategy to search user's personal files for both \input and \openin. I have found it _very_ useful with UNIX to put `..' on the standard search path. Then I can create a subdirectory called say _pages_ and cd to pages, on which I can run TeX/MF with some temporary changes to input fies and I won't clobber any of the master files or the parent directory. My applications of this idea would fail if \openin didn't also look at .. directory when unable to find an . directory. ] I want to inform everyone that LaTeX3 will actually *rely* on the fact that \openin searches the same directories as \input does. LaTeX3 will automatically generate for every document style a compact, less human readable version, if it doesn't exist already. Since the only way to test for its existence is to use the sequence \openin \ifeof, we face two choices: a) If \openin looks into the system area, these compact versions are written only once, into the system area, b) otherwise they have to be (and will be) written in every user's directory. The second solution is clearly unacceptable. Therefore we urge all implementors of TeX systems to follow DEK's suggestion and have \openin look through the search path has well. Thank you. For the LaTeX3 project, Rainer M. Sch"opf